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AIBU?

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Original poster

to consider this an act of theft?

118 replies

Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:01

Last night I went into a pub, bought a bottle of wine and sat down in the pub garden.

We had drunk just a glass each when we were told to leave because the place was closing. We were surprised the barman hadn't warned us when we bought the wine that we probably wouldn't have time to drink it all because the pub was soon to close.

We tried to take the unfinished bottle with us when we left, but were confronted by several uniformed security guards at the exit to the pub, one of whom forcibly took the bottle from me.

We remonstrated, of course, but were simply told repeatedly that we weren't allowed to take drink from the premises. I asked if that was because the pub didn't have an off-licence - they didn't know, but I'm guessing that was the reason. Also, apparently it's a crime to be out on the street in that area (I was in a big city). Of course, we planned to get straight into a taxi once we had left the pub rather than waddle down the road swigging it.

Bearing in mind that security guards have no more power than you or me (many people think they are invested with some sort of legal power but that's not true - they are simply members of the public with a uniform on), was this theft, do you think?

I don't see how it can't be. A member of the public (albeit a burly one with a uniform on) forcibly took something from me. To say that it's a crime to be on the streets with alcohol - or that the pub doesn't have an off-licence - is no excuse, surely. You cannot take someone else's property in order to prevent them from committing a crime and for that to be legally OK.

OP posts:
nennypops · 26/10/2013 13:01

How about going back to the pub and saying "I'll have the rest of my bottle of wine now, please"?

ZangelbertBingeldac · 26/10/2013 13:07

I have to say, if the doorman was officious it's probably because has the same argument over and over again every night. I used to work in a pub and it was always a source of contention getting people to drink up and get out and you do get bored of having the same argument over and over again.

Also, they're not generally known for their people skills, are they? But I sympathise as I would have been pissed off too.

Nanny0gg · 26/10/2013 13:12

NannyOgg, the barman wouldn't have known if the bottle of wine was to serve six people or one. It would have been nice of him to warn us but that's no big deal.
Weren't you given glasses too?

paxtecum · 26/10/2013 13:15

If they hadn't forcibly taken the bottle off you, you would still be standing arguing with them twelve hours later as you are on here.

FraidyCat · 26/10/2013 15:07

Maybe alcohol is sold in pubs on a similar basis to software, you didn't own the wine, merely the right to consume it on the premises? Grin

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 23:56

Freakin, whether the doorman was within his legal rights to act as he did has nothing whatsoever to do with "the laws relating to the pub you were at" - whatever that means. It makes no sense at all to me! Anyway...

Gogo, your imaginings are precisely that.

Paxtecum, I've spent the last twelve hours having a lovely time! I've been nowhere near the Internet, let alone "arguing". Wink

But yes, some of you have made some pertinent points - that I didn't own the bottle etc. And if I ever return there, I shall go armed with a capacious handbag and an innocent expression. Sláinte! Grin

OP posts:
BOF · 27/10/2013 00:03

Gosh, it's just a discussion borne out of curiosity and asking for people's experiences/viewpoints- why all the nastiness? Shock

oscar126 · 27/10/2013 00:06

Not theft, no dishonesty.

YoureBeingAnAnyFuckerFan · 27/10/2013 00:20

Op i think i agree with you on technicality of it all. I wonder, it would appear it is not legal for the doorman to forcibly remove the bottle from you, if he followed that law would his only other option have been to prevent you leaving the premises? Would that be false imprisonment?

Hmm interesting one i have never actually thought about. Also raises some questions over other behaviour of doormen i have seen that could be considered serious crimes if they are actually just the same as joe bloggs on the street wearing a uniform.

YoureBeingAnAnyFuckerFan · 27/10/2013 00:26

And i agree with BOF. I think its obvious OP is just asking about the legality of it- she has no intention if ruining anyone's life by pressing charges.

Also- are pubs allowed to let people in to the premises after 11pm?

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 28/10/2013 02:12

BOF: you know why "all the nastiness". People can be very "brave" from behind the safety of their keyboards. I think some posters swiftly moved on to find a more satisfactory bear to bait though. Not much fun to be had from me in that respect. Smile

YBAAF, you raise some interesting points. As I have mentioned more than once, doormen/private security guards have no more legal powers than any other member of the public. (If I'm wrong about this - and I don't think I am - I hope someone will quote some evidence from a reputable source and I will then eat humble pie, I promise.)

So if I had clung on to my half-bottle of wine with all my 5ft, 9-stone might, it could have turned into a bit of a wrestling match. We are then entering the realms of assault/battery. And, indeed, as you say, false imprisonment if we had not been allowed to leave the premises.

As for opening times, yes, of course they can admit customers after 11pm. Pubs apply to their local council for their desired opening times. Permission is granted according to area etc.

It's almost worth playing out the whole thing again (hold on to your thumbs, flamers; resist the urge!), taking it all the way and seeing what would happen. Clasp bottle vehemently to bosom; refuse to leave without it. I'd probably end up with an ASBO. Smile

OP posts:
Altinkum · 28/10/2013 05:46

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Altinkum · 28/10/2013 05:54

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Altinkum · 28/10/2013 06:17

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Altinkum · 28/10/2013 06:50

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JustAnotherSod · 28/10/2013 07:13

You surely bought the wine for consumption on the premises only therefore I fail to see how not permitting you to leave the premises with said wine was anything but the bar / security ensuring that the terms by which the wine was purchased were applied?

SoupDragon · 28/10/2013 07:31

I wanted them to let me out of the pub (with the wine I had paid for), get into a taxi and go home.

So you wanted them to break the law for you and risk their license and livelihood? Confused

Lililly · 28/10/2013 07:38

Their licence will probably be on the council website, if they don't have an off licence, they would have a duty to keep to the conditions on their licence so would be obliged to stop you leaving with alcohol. Not telling you that you only had a short time to finish the bottle is bad management, best dealt with on trip advisor.

killpeppa · 28/10/2013 07:42

I bring large handbags out for this reason.

Altinkum · 28/10/2013 07:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Longtalljosie · 28/10/2013 07:47

The doorman had no choice. Either it is an on-license purchase (you open and drink it there) or an off-licence purchase (you purchase it and leave with it still sealed). Once opened, they cannot let you leave with the open bottle. That's the law.

MadameDefarge · 28/10/2013 07:51

Under the licencing act the owners or their employees are duty bound to do what they can to uphold the four major tenets of the licencing law, which include not adding to anti social behaviour (in or out of pub), child protection, um, can't remember the other two!

So yes they did have the right to enforce their duty according to the licencing act. Letting people totter out into the night half ripped with an open bottle of wine certainly comes under it.

Grabbing it off you however is just bad manners.

DixonBainbridge · 28/10/2013 08:34

Don't know how all these T-Rex's can type!

I'm with you OP - after having my "Gordon the Gopher" puppet confiscated by some thug on my way in to a club (it was Fair Night) & then threatened with violence when I tried to claim him back on the way out in 1988, I have a generally low opinion of door staff & have since avoided any dealings with them if I can help it.

I do see where you're coming from OP, no pubs shut at the same time nowadays so you're never quite sure when last orders is, you should be able to hear last orders from all areas & there will always be the nagging feeling that the Doormen sat down & finished your wine off once you'd gone, chuckling to themselves!!

As you say, large bag & innocent expression would be the way forward next time - they shouldn't be the hardest people to fool....

SoupDragon · 28/10/2013 08:40

T-Rexs?

forumdonkey · 28/10/2013 09:00

OP would you be happy with alcohol fueled people walking the streets with glass bottles in their hands at kicking out time of pubs? Many men and women think they are '10 men' booze filled and allowing them glass bottles on the streets would give them a lethal weapon. Now I know you would have took your bottle home but for those finishing them outside the bars and clubs do they get smashed and litter the streets - would you be happy walking on pavements littered with broken glass? Not allowing drinks, particularly bottles off the premises makes common sense and it has to be one rule for all. I really don't get your grievance with all this. As for the barman who didn't warn you - how does he know if the bottle of wine was for just yourself or a group of 6?