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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to consider this an act of theft?

118 replies

Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 10:01

Last night I went into a pub, bought a bottle of wine and sat down in the pub garden.

We had drunk just a glass each when we were told to leave because the place was closing. We were surprised the barman hadn't warned us when we bought the wine that we probably wouldn't have time to drink it all because the pub was soon to close.

We tried to take the unfinished bottle with us when we left, but were confronted by several uniformed security guards at the exit to the pub, one of whom forcibly took the bottle from me.

We remonstrated, of course, but were simply told repeatedly that we weren't allowed to take drink from the premises. I asked if that was because the pub didn't have an off-licence - they didn't know, but I'm guessing that was the reason. Also, apparently it's a crime to be out on the street in that area (I was in a big city). Of course, we planned to get straight into a taxi once we had left the pub rather than waddle down the road swigging it.

Bearing in mind that security guards have no more power than you or me (many people think they are invested with some sort of legal power but that's not true - they are simply members of the public with a uniform on), was this theft, do you think?

I don't see how it can't be. A member of the public (albeit a burly one with a uniform on) forcibly took something from me. To say that it's a crime to be on the streets with alcohol - or that the pub doesn't have an off-licence - is no excuse, surely. You cannot take someone else's property in order to prevent them from committing a crime and for that to be legally OK.

OP posts:
kali110 · 26/10/2013 10:56

If you didnt hear they were closing then thats not the pubs fault. I dont know any pubs that let you take alcohol out with you. Hide it better next time

friday16 · 26/10/2013 10:57

If the doorman is employed by the pub then they are within their rights to ensure people are not taking alcohol/glass away from the premises.

They are not within their rights to do so by force, however.

Teeb · 26/10/2013 10:58

The legal question you're posing, I'd compare it to taking the car keys from someone you believe intends to drink drive, which I wouldn't call theft.

DuckworthLewis · 26/10/2013 10:58

To your first pont, there is plenty of case law where people genuinely believe they have bought something (often through an intermediary) where there was fraudulant activity on the part of someone else.

The person who ended up with the goods has in effect permanently deprived the original owner of their goods, but without any dishonestly on their part. (the dishonest party normally being long gone by this point)

In answer to your second point. There are defences built into the theft act to protect people who genuinely believe they had the right to take something. It's not ignorance of the law, it is the law. It's called the subjective test (or Ghosh test, from the case it originated from) in case you wish to do some further reading.

Why don't you have a read of the theft act itself it is a matter of interest to you? it's (relatively) easy going and quite illuminating.

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 11:00

Kali110, I completely agree. I'm not blaming the pub at all, though it would have been nice of the barman to warn us that we didn't have much time.

OP posts:
Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 11:01

Good point about car keys. It's interesting, isn't it!

OP posts:
Whereisegg · 26/10/2013 11:02

I believe (though may be wrong) it is the fact that the bottle was open that was the problem.

I always though you could be sold 'carry out' but that all drinks must be sealed.

mylovelymonster · 26/10/2013 11:03

FWIW, get a grip/take some responsibility for yourself probably is the only reply this thread warrants

Nanny0gg · 26/10/2013 11:05

I'm not blaming the pub at all, though it would have been nice of the barman to warn us that we didn't have much time.

See, I don't get this. The barman would have known that you wouldn't have had time to drink it and he should have warned you and therefore just sold you a glass not a bottle. Was he on commission? I'd have asked for a refund.

What time was it btw?

friday16 · 26/10/2013 11:05

I'd compare it to taking the car keys from someone you believe intends to drink drive, which I wouldn't call theft.

But if you did so by force, a court would consider proportionality. Drink driving and a technical breach of the licensing laws would not get over that hurdle. Especially as someone driving a car while drunk is committing an offence themselves, while someone taking alcohol off premises that do not have an off license is not, themselves, committing a crime. So far as I am aware, you are not committing an offence to buy a bottle of wine from a pub which does not have an off-license and then leave with it; the pub may be, however, if it sell you a bottle with a reasonable belief that this was what you were going to do.

Even if you accept the premise that a doorman can forcibly prevent you from committing and arguable offence (I'm not sure that power is remotely as wide-ranging as some seem to believe) they certainly don't have the power to forcibly stop you from being an innocent party in an offence arguably committed by their employer.

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 11:08

My lovely monster, that is quite unnecessary. Again, if you're not interested, scroll on by rather than say banal things.

I read a précis of the Ghosh case. The "dishonesty" bit is interesting. I think you're probably right and that it won't stand up in Strasbourg Wink.

Bullying doormen who think they're important do irritate me a big though. Grin

OP posts:
Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 11:10

Friday16, you put that very well. It was exactly what I've been trying to say but you've done it much better than I could. Grin

OP posts:
DuckworthLewis · 26/10/2013 11:12

Taking the car keys in that example would be neither intending permanently deprive (as long as there was an intention to return them once the person was sober) nor dishonest so in that instnce the 'theft' would fall down on points 4 and 5.

I am, however, now joining the chorus of 'get a grip' OP

You are in the wrong.

Heartbrokenmum73 · 26/10/2013 11:12

This isn't really even about the wine/pub/barman or any of that though is it?

The whole point of this is just to have a go at the doormen, surely.

OP, you have way too much time on your hands to be obsessing over this (citing law cases Confused) the next day.

Read a book or watch some tv or something - let it go!

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 11:14

NannyOgg, the barman wouldn't have known if the bottle of wine was to serve six people or one. It would have been nice of him to warn us but that's no big deal.

OP posts:
mrsjay · 26/10/2013 11:16

daft question but did you not realise the time what time was it ? if you had a half finished glass of vodka would you expect to take it with you they would tell you to drink up or leave it I dont think it was theft , the barman could have told you I suppose but i think you need to put it down to experience

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 11:16

HeartbrokenMum, I'm hardly obsessing! And I do have some free time this weekend, for a lovely change! I could say the same to you - that you have way too much time on your hands if you're hunched over your phone/laptop on a forum being rude to strangers rather than doing something nice. Smile

OP posts:
DuckworthLewis · 26/10/2013 11:19

X post op

BillyBanter · 26/10/2013 11:21

I expect punters who think they are too important to stick to the rules are quite annoying to people trying to do their jobs too.

mylovelymonster · 26/10/2013 11:21

Why not post your question in Legal?

SPsTombRaidingWithCliff · 26/10/2013 11:21

I've never had an issue with taking bottles of unfinished wine out of a pub. Not like it happens often Grin

I have also take a glass of lager home from the pub as I suddenly needed to leave and landlord said to take it with me.

The lesson here is drink quicker

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 11:22

Mrsjay, we absolutely should have asked if it was worth buying a bottle. Mea culpa. But the pub was full, we'd lost track of time and it didn't occur to us.

Thank you for all the interesting, constructive comments. I might have a quick whinge at the pub manager later when I'm passing. If that's not too "obsessive" and showing lack of taking responsibility for myself, of course. Wink

OP posts:
Heartbrokenmum73 · 26/10/2013 11:23

I'm not being rude to strangers - I'm giving my opinion on an opinions board. You asked for opinions, that's mine. I'm as entitled to share what think as anyone else.

And I do think you're coming across as quite snobby about the doormen.

Original poster
Lillielangtry · 26/10/2013 11:26

I don't mean to be "snobby". I asked if it was theft. That has thrown up some interesting comments.

OP posts:
mrsjay · 26/10/2013 11:28

TBh i would have just put it in my bag and legged it Grin

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