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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand why teachers should object to performance related pay?

718 replies

Dolcelatte · 18/10/2013 09:08

After all, it happens in most other sectors, so why should teachers be any different. I am not trying to be controversial and there will undoubtedly be others with a better understanding of the issues. However, I don't understand the objections in principle. Why shouldn't remuneration be dependent upon performance?

OP posts:
crunchybargalore · 20/10/2013 19:56

There is loads and loads of research showing prp does not work.

If anyone has worked anywhere where prp has actually worked them I would love to hear about it.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 19:56

'starlight, you seriously think that if there is a budget for anger management that a child with anger management issues is simply cured? Or if they are not cured instantly then a statement will be simply given to them?'

I don't know what you mean tbh. Statements are never given without asking for one. I believe that schools are not asking for them when they should do however, for a variety of reasons including being misinformed by the LA.

Talkinpeace · 20/10/2013 19:58

crunchbar
I agere. Companies I've worked for used it and got rid of it because it was divisive and counter productive. THey kept the appraisal and assessment parts but got rid of the financial incentives

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:02

You don't know what I mean? A child has anger management issues. The school uses its budget to fund anger management counselling, the child is issues with a time out card, staff are advised of strategies in dealing with him.

Said child in my lesson has to be restrained because he has punched the child next to him for some perceived slight.

So you're saying that the school resources haven't worked and therefore I should apply for a statement for that child?

Or maybe, just maybe, anger issues are a bit more problematic than you are allowing for, and unpredictable things can spark a problem despite the best efforts of the teacher and the school.

What good would a statement do?

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:02

I don't have disdain for teachers Bliss. I am frustrated by their defensiveness and lack of training and knowledge about both SEN and the law surrounding SEN.

Blissx · 20/10/2013 20:04

Easy to be an armchair critic isn't it?

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:04

Starlight you seem to have a complete lack of knowledge of the reality of SEN in a secondary school.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:06

Well ultimately a statement could provide full-time 1:1 to ensure child doesn't punch anyone else.

However the statutory assessment is probably of more benefit as it will get a bunch of professionals to come out of the woodwork and properly assess his needs regardless of whether a statement is issued.

Training in behavioural strategies, motivational strategies, assessment of triggers, assessment of sensory seeking behaviour and environmental issues will all be taken care of EVEN IF NO STATEMENT is granted.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:07

Fairly easy Bliss yes. Because there is a lot that is wrong.

Mostly it is the system, but teachers are so frightened of change (and with good reason) that they are defending a system that isn't working.

Talkinpeace · 20/10/2013 20:07

Heaven forfend that the Statement problems might actually be nothing to do with the teachers but actually be down to the beancounters at the LEA .....

My local LEA got hammered for bad results so restructured parts of its provision.
THe results are coming up really well, but the method they have used (extensive use of a PRU) is getting them hammered as well.
Heads they lose tails Gove slags them off.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:08

noble I don't have a complete lack of knowledge regarding the reality of SEN in a secondary school.

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:09

How, starlight? Would the 1:1 stand between the angry child and whoever they are talking to in case the other kid calls their mum a moose prompting a left hook?

And would the child making suicide attempts have 1:1 support so they can't sneak off and give it another go?

Perhaps 1:1 support for the depressed kid who keeps bunking off lessons?

Because despite the best efforts of a wide range of professionals, these things happen, and happen more than once.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:10

What statement problems Talk. There is a law that guides the process. There is no need for problems.

Meet the criteria (and have a SENCO that even know the law re the criteria which isn't a given), and get a statement.

Don't meet the criteria and get up to £10k of funding plus an LA top up if make a case.

PRUs are not long term solutions to lack of provision and the LA should rightly be hammered if they are using them for this.

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/10/2013 20:12

But starlight you are only talking about one aspect of SEN.
SEN isn't just about statements and those that have statements haven't just been awarded them.

When I talk about TAs affecting SEN I am talking about non statemented non funded SEN that when the TA leaves or is made redundant it affects them.

I am not talking about fully funded statemented children who are allocated 1-2-1.

You can quote the law about statemented children all you like but they are two different but linked items.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:13

'Because despite the best efforts of a wide range of professionals, these things happen, and happen more than once.'

Goodness me. Then I hope those professionals are also on performance related pay as these things should absolutely not happen more than once.

But as I said before, if I were making decisions regarding the school budget I would not be buying in local authority services to advise on support.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:13

Schools get a delegated budget that covers SEN and which includes those not covered by statements.

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:15

Ok Starlight how would you stop a child with deep seated anger management issues from ever punching another child ever again? Please tell me.

Because your pay rise depends on it.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:15

If they spend it on a vegetable garden to compete with the neighbouring school for MC kids then they are misspending their funds.

morry1000 · 20/10/2013 20:15

If anyone should get performance related pay its Dds English and Senco
she has turned Dd round she has done amazing with Dd who is now
flying thanks to her. She has told me if Dd keeps this level up she should be aiming for 7A* in June they would have put her in in November but cant now. Dds English teacher is an amazing teacher and person. She has even got Dd spending 2.5 hrs a night on homework, Dd and i just want to say thank you to her.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:16

If they were a danger to other children in the class I would request a statutory assessment of their needs for support to ensure that they never acted in a way that would get them excluded from school.

Blissx · 20/10/2013 20:17

if I were making decisions regarding the school budget I am grateful that you are not, as your knowledge and experience is sorely lacking from your overly simplistic statements.

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 20:18

Not good enough, Starlight. You are suggesting that there is a method out there that would stop a child with deep seated anger management issues from ever punching a child ever again and that any situation where this happens more than once is because there has been a failure to implement this method.

So what is it?

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 20:19

What parts Bliss?

Blissx · 20/10/2013 20:19

If they were a danger to other children in the class I would request a statutory assessment of their needs for support to ensure that they never acted in a way that would get them excluded from school. and if your request was denied, then what?

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/10/2013 20:20

where the hell did the vegetable garden come from??!!!!!!!