Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand why teachers should object to performance related pay?

718 replies

Dolcelatte · 18/10/2013 09:08

After all, it happens in most other sectors, so why should teachers be any different. I am not trying to be controversial and there will undoubtedly be others with a better understanding of the issues. However, I don't understand the objections in principle. Why shouldn't remuneration be dependent upon performance?

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 18:36

Why should they not be in mainstream school?

Because people who know them better than you assessed them and decided that mainstream education was not appropriate for them.

Do you think the same thing about black boys?

No, because I'm not a racist. Are you?

viewwitharoom · 20/10/2013 18:37

An adherence to resource led intervention??
I think in reality many more good teachers will leave the profession because all too soon the frustration in being unable to access the necessaries will be too much. Just read back through this thread for a taster of that.
You could use your data to look at countries where despite no prp for teachers, young people achieve better outcomes at the end of compulsory education than in the UK. What do they do better than us? B

Talkinpeace · 20/10/2013 18:37

Why should they not be in mainstream school? They are as much a part of society as any other child and entitled to be educated in that environment.
More utter and complete bollocks
Some children will have much, much better outcomes in special schools and some children have physiological reasons that mean they should never ever be in mainstream school. Have you ever visited a secure boarding school?

skylerwhite · 20/10/2013 18:37

That you just insinuated, nastily, that noble was racist.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 18:38

A Local Authority can't refuse to fund a child's attendance at the special school that is named in his/her statement.

The Local Authority has a statutory responsibility to ensure that all children receive an adequate education.

The school is obliged to fund all provision outlined in a statement as it is written. If it is not specified and quantified then the school and/or parents should remind the LA of their legal duty and ensure that it is before accepting it.

echt · 20/10/2013 18:39

Why should a teacher go the extra mile? Why isn't doing the job enough?

Thinking of pupils' results; how can we tell good results are not in spite of poor/ indifferent/average teaching instead of because of good teaching? Reverse this for por results.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 18:40

No cuts have been made to SEN funding, though it has been delegated to schools and not ring-fenced.

viewwitharoom · 20/10/2013 18:41

Oh crap, what happened there?

echt · 20/10/2013 18:41

Poor, not por.

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 18:41

A Local Authority can't refuse to fund a child's attendance at the special school that is named in his/her statement

That's not what I said happened.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 18:42

I'm not implying noble was a racist. I was making a comparison about where we were 60 or so years ago when black boys were underachieving hugely and teachers were shrugging their responsibility towards changing that and blaming it on the child's inability or their own lack of responsibility to a child who really would not amount to much nor was there any point to them being in their classroom.

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2013 18:43

The school is obliged to fund all provision outlined in a statement as it is written.

How much control do you think an individual teacher has over what goes into a child's statement?

And what about the children who don't have statements, but nonetheless have severe needs?

Talkinpeace · 20/10/2013 18:43

starlight
are you actually in the UK? or even on earth?
because if you were you would know full well that what happens is that statements can take up to six years to get and then are vague enough to not name a particular school so that funding does not have to be released

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/10/2013 18:46

StarlightMcKenzie
"No cuts have been made to SEN funding"

But gove has/is changing all of the SEN criteria.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 18:46

'Some children will have much, much better outcomes in special schools and some children have physiological reasons that mean they should never ever be in mainstream school.'

Of course they would if their experience of mainstream is that the teachers shrug them off as shouldn't be there.

'Have you ever visited a secure boarding school'

Actually I have. Children there are not the kinds of children that noble describes, though I would hedge a bet that at least some of them are there because of years of not being supported adequately in mainstream school and not because they couldn't have been but because of attitudes like those shown on this thread.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 18:47

He is Boney, but he hasn't done yet, so I'm not sure how that excuses the attitudes so far.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 18:49

'How much control do you think an individual teacher has over what goes into a child's statement?'

Exceptional control. If they wanted that child to have a statement they simply write to the LA detailing the provision they believe the child needs in their professional opinion.

Why would you not do that?

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 18:51

'And what about the children who don't have statements, but nonetheless have severe needs?'

If a child has needs that can't be covered by the schools resources then that fulfils the criteria for a statement. So apply for one.

If the needs can be covered from within the schools resources then cover them.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 18:52

Talk The statutory timescales for non-urgent statements is 26 weeks. This can be expedited for urgent cases.

It does not take 6 years. If you think that then your SENCO or LA has been lying to you.

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/10/2013 18:56

I don't see any attitudes on here, just professionals struggling to work with what they've got.

Just FYI, budget cuts to associate staff are having an adverse effect on SEN provision.

SprinkleLiberally · 20/10/2013 18:58

Starlight. Do you mainly think in terms of primary school? With one teacher all week? I'm not being snarky. I just wonder. I see most pupils for 50inutwz a week in a group of 32.

SprinkleLiberally · 20/10/2013 18:59

50 minutes obvs!

alistron1 · 20/10/2013 18:59

Starlight - you might have once worked in education but your recent comments show that you're completely out of touch with what is going on now.

There are no 'special' schools, there is nowhere for children with ESBD issues (for example) to be appropriately educated/supported. Statements and CAHMS referrals can take AGES to come through.

Due to academy conversions LA's have lost the economy of scale to provide support, and free schools/academies can't afford the ed psych referrals to support children with SEN.

An example form my LA - 10 years ago we had LA wide support for EAL kids newly arrived to the UK. Now that is gone, and a teacher in my LA can have kids arriving with no English, there is no support and the results of those kids over the course of an assessment cycle affect how they are judged.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 19:00

'Just FYI, budget cuts to associate staff are having an adverse effect on SEN provision'

Schools are given budgets to cover their children with SEN. They are also bound by the requirements of the statements and they are not allowed legally to remove resources from those children on the basis of a claim of lack of funding.

StarlightMcKenzie · 20/10/2013 19:01

Sprinkle Yes. The majority of my experience is with primary though not exclusively.