To be FUMING that FiL has used racist language around ds.

[Stillhopingstillhere]

Ds is 4.4 and has been to see my PiL this afternoon (without me). Dh took him. PIL are in their 70s and are quite ignorant in a lot of ways IMO.

Dh told me that today ds was playing shops with FIL. Apparently ds said to FIL "that will be ten pounds please." To which FIL replied "that's expensive, that's more than the p**is charge."

Dh told FIL not to say that again and ds hasn't repeated it (yet) but I am fuming! Fuming! As well as it being totally disgusting and offensive language I do not want ds repeating it unwittingly at school and being branded a racist. Or them thinking it's something we have said. I am genuinely quite horrified. Am I overreacting to this? Should I say something to FIL next time I see him too? Apparently he wasn't very apologetic and actually didn't seem to think he'd said anything wrong. I suppose partly it's generational but seriously, has this every been acceptable as a phrase? I think not.

Perhaps I've led a sheltered life but I have never heard the word Paki used in a racist way - just as an abbreviation.

Just because you don't 'hear' the racism doesn't mean the racism isn't there. It is a racist term, and as someone from Edinburgh it is a racist term in Edinburgh and Glasgow too. Doesn't matter if it's said 'with affection', doesn't matter if its said by everyone, it's still racist.

It's also not really up to the people using the term to decide if they find it offensive or not, it's up to the people it's being used to describe.

I read this title and thought it was me! My FIL used that term at Sunday lunch yesterday. Not in the way you describe in your story, you know, racist but in a casual descriptive way -e.g "the p----shop" . A racist term, but not necessarily spiteful.
What he said was so offensive, hate-filled, ignorant and cruel that I nearly walked out. It wasn't my house however, and thank god that the DC were in the other room. No-body said anything for a few seconds. DP put his head in his hands, SIL (his daughter) said "What are we going to do with you?" I said in my coldest voice. "I would appreciate it if you refrained from using those words near my children.
They won't be seeing my children for some time now, they will not ever be left alone with them and I will be letting my DC know that Grandpa is a silly rude old man to whom we pay no attention. He was warned (by DP) last time he said it (I did a thread about it.) and he deliberately said it to get a rise. He is in his seventies, but DP never heard him say the n-word or the p-word until recently. He has been heavily influenced by the fascist paper he reads and he is stupid. I felt really upset that my DC are related to him. My children will not be poisoned by his hate. (My MIL is just as racist but not quite as stupid as him, she knows not to say that word in public.) Thank god DP agrees.

but you know what all this talk of 'racism' and the 'p-word' and the 'n-word', effectively policing people's speech actually creates more hatred in the end. (not that i am saying these words are acceptable).
but of all the words ending in 'ism, eg fascism, Marxism, Thatcherism, capitalism (note they describe political/economic regimes) can be easily defined.
'Racism' on the other hand is nothing of the kind, either way, yet more people claim to have knowledge of it than any other '-ism' in existence.
When infant school children can have 'racism' on their record, you know things have gone to far really don't you?
btw i knew one infant who had it on his record when he had in fact said 'knickers' - but the teacher swooped on it with glee and would brook no arguments.
What am i trying to say?
Fuck knows.

YADNBU.

When my ds was 5 i was called into school as i was told that my ds had called another child a ' faggot'. I had no idea where my ds had heard this language as myself and dh would not dream of using such vile language.
When i asked my son where he had heard this word, he said that he had heard it from my bil . My bil happens to be a homophobic twat btw.
I was furious and had harsh words with my bil. The thing is that despite my protestations, i was convinced that the school thought that ds was simply repeating something he had heard from myself or dh.

I tend to agree with you BurberryQ. I think the idea that one word can be said, and that this is so terrible that the conversation stops - and the person who said that word must not be allowed to see children again - must be really baffling for children. And quite scary. Even if the rules about avoiding name-calling and unkind words at school are clear enough, they'll worry about what happens if they say the 'wrong' word.

My father-in-law has regularly rufflled feathers here with his remarks about my stepdaughter's boyfriend. It's excruciating going into any hospital/doctors waiting room with him because of the loudly voiced comments about the ethnicity of other people waiting for appointments.

But what my partner and I are trying to model to our children is a sense that we continue to take care of vulnerable elderly people - and do our duty towards them - even when we do not share many of their opinions or approve of the way they sometimes express themselves.

I don't think you are remotely over-reacting - he is a racist git and of course you don't want your DS picking any of it up.

The good thing is that your DH is on it. I don't think you should wade in too, after th event. However if it ocurs in your hearing, I would say 'DH asked you not to use language like that before. I don't want DS to listen to racist stuff so we are leaving'.

I grew up with racist relatives - paternal GM, aunt and uncle - was told all sorts of horrible nonsense. But it didn't stick with me because i heard my parents challenge it and be sure to give a very strong opposing message at home.

Children will always hear opposing views, you can't keep them in a bubble, teaching them to question what they hear and measure them against a set of values is the important thing.

the idea that one word can be said, and that this is so terrible that the conversation stops - and the person who said that word must not be allowed to see children again - must be really baffling for children, and scary
exactly FrauMoose, and what Blu said too - teaching them to question what they hear and measure them against a set of values is the important thing

Is racism difficult to define?

Personally, I've never gone wrong with "racism is the idea that it is acceptable to stereotype and pre-judge someone's character/abilities/etc on the basis of their race and that it is acceptable to treat people differently due to their race".

The p-word was unacceptable in the eighties and the nineties. You just had to give a frell about being offensive and nasty. (And also about being accurate- it is peculiarly insensitive and ignorant to call a whole of a set of Britons P*s when many not only do not trace their descent to Pakistan, but may trace their ancestry to a country that has rather a difficult diplomatic relationship with Pakistan!)

that is good Jessie - but since when did having a different skin colour or religion or nationality make someone a different race? There is only one race u know...

There may be only one human race in truth, but racists don't believe that, do they?

Why should we let racists get away with it, just because they're merely discriminating against people based on nonsense? I mean, the whole reason we are against it is because it's nonsense.

I think a lot of people who see very elderly people making inappropriate remarks do realise that there are issues around mental health involved.

Apologetic smiles, raised eyebrows and shrugs have been exchanged.

I am not entirely sure what I'd want to happen if I were in the role of one of the patients being commented on. Would I want to witness two people having a row that had been indirectly triggered by my presence, and which concerned me? Probably conducted in quite a loud voice because of my relative's deafness? Some people also find it very upsetting to witness an elderly person being 'told off' by younger ones. (In a church group I had to ask an older person to be quiet because her behaviour was upsetting the smooth running of a service, and at least one person whose own mother had dementia found that upsetting.)

My children and stepchildren have their own views. I am not sure that either me or my husband or their grandfather are supremely important now that they're all in their teens or young adults. But I am pleased they are all caring and thoughtful people - with a wide range of friends - who try to do what is right. None of them seem particularly cowardly!

yes that i can agree with....

Bugger! When my own mother gets white hair- people will start thinking the racist remarks are a recent development.

Ah well, at least then maybe she won't hurt people's feelings. That's probably more important.

allforoneandoneforall has a valid point, though I can understand why most wouldn't see it her way.

It very much depends on the tone with which the words are said and the context.

If only this site hosted pictures...

No-one needs to say the p--- shop. Corner shop? Newsagent? Heard the words?

How do you even know they're Pakistani? Check their passports and the passports of their parents and grandparents did you?

All you can say, I think, is that granddad sometimes says silly things. Not all old people are racists so it would be wrong to make it about his age- not least as he clearly hasnt got all that much worse with age.

I wouldn't panic over one incident but I would make it clear to FIL (via MIL is usually the way) that if there is any danger of DS picking up bad language in her house, he won't be able to visit. I would call it "bad language" rather than "racist language", as she can argue about whether its racist but she cant argue it's not bad language. Also, she will used to the idea that you don't use bad langaue in front of DC.

She will sort him out sharpish, nothing gets a granny going fsater than the throught of losing her DGC.

allforoneandoneforall does make some valid points though - these days it is like the language police are out, but that doesn't take hatred away, just drives it underground.

It's pretty easy to tell if someone is Pakistani, especially if they work in a shop where you have lived all your life and know them. And if they weren't why is that more insulting than, say, confusing an Aussia and a Kiwi? A Canadian and a Yank? ridiculous! It's about as easy an working out someone is from China, Somalia, Italy etc we have differences and some of these are physical, didn't you notice!

There is no reason not to refer to someone's racial originas. No one race beats another, so no race is shameful or unmentionable.

But some terms are designed to be dismissive and nasty, and for a certain generation that is how they are used.

Younger people can subvert that ironically and use previously taboo terms affectionately. But that is clearly not what the FIL was doing here.

Growing up in Australia, the word "Pakis" was only ever used to describe the Pakistani cricket team. (The word "Windies" referred to the West Indian cricket team.) These were mostly used in newspaper headlines on the sports pages. They were never meant in a derogatory way - the Pakistani and West Indian cricket teams were strong opponents!

However, now I live in the UK, I am aware that the word "Paki" is used in a deeply unpleasant way, here. (Australia has plenty of it's own racist insults, unfortunately.) So, I don't use it in any context, any more.

I am not too keen on being called an Aussie, but it is certainly not an insult in the league of "Paki".

There is another post going on, you may have seen i have not commented, saying someone is racist because they called a black man....well, a black man?? "Why didn't you use something else to describe him" what are they incinuating that describing someone as black is offensive?? To who? What's wrong with that - I'm actually boiling at the lack of common sense from both MN and society in general