To be FUMING that FiL has used racist language around ds.

[Stillhopingstillhere]

Ds is 4.4 and has been to see my PiL this afternoon (without me). Dh took him. PIL are in their 70s and are quite ignorant in a lot of ways IMO.

Dh told me that today ds was playing shops with FIL. Apparently ds said to FIL "that will be ten pounds please." To which FIL replied "that's expensive, that's more than the p**is charge."

Dh told FIL not to say that again and ds hasn't repeated it (yet) but I am fuming! Fuming! As well as it being totally disgusting and offensive language I do not want ds repeating it unwittingly at school and being branded a racist. Or them thinking it's something we have said. I am genuinely quite horrified. Am I overreacting to this? Should I say something to FIL next time I see him too? Apparently he wasn't very apologetic and actually didn't seem to think he'd said anything wrong. I suppose partly it's generational but seriously, has this every been acceptable as a phrase? I think not.

He obviously doesn't know how the 'Pakis' operate (I'm assuming here he lumps Indians and Pakis in one homogenous group). A lot of our neighbour's are Gujarati and own grocery stores - they are successful because they concentrate more on volume than high margins. They are significantly cheaper than buying at the local big-name supermarkets.

I think there has been a massive over-reaction to this. The Southern Asian owned corner shops charge very high prices even compared to Waitrose. Statement of fact and that is why I don't use them. Your DS needs to be aware of how to count his pennies and I think that's what FIL was trying to convey. No intention of being racist.

I hear Australians referred to as Aussie's and South African's all the time - it's an abbreviation and they don't take offence. As for coloured (although it isn't a term I use now) I was taught as a child that it was rude to say black. It wasn't until the early 70s that coloured started to be incorrect. I have also seen situations where Indian people have got very offended when being mistaken for people from Pakistan.

If primary schools are noting every tiny inappropriate comment such as you say then it seems a great shame that a tiny child who was attending school died quite recently as a result of violent and abuse and starvation. Perhaps one might venture to suggest that the teachers at his school needed to refocus their priorities. Suggest they spend a little more time teaching.

So, is there never any point at which an allowance can be made for the attitudes of a different time? My husband's 99 year old great-aunt has suffered a mental and physical deterioration in recent years. When younger she spoke out against the racist attitudes of a fellow-patient during a hospital stay. More recently though she became hostile towards a carer who her own daughter had found friendly and reliable, and used phrases about - not to - her that the daughter found racist. The daughter was really distressed as she felt that these attitudes weren't something the mother she had known would ever have felt or voiced. But they were now coming to the surface quite strongly. She felt that essentially her Mum was regressing to the First World War period, and found it difficult to accept intimate personal care from anyone who would have been regarded as 'other' by her own family and friends (her mother is Jewish and grew up in a city in the 'Near East') back in her early 20th centurychildhood. My great aunt's daughter had the unenviable task of ringing a care agency to say that her mother had taken an unreasonable dislike to a pleasant and helpful carer. Given that she didn't want her mother to become agitated and distressed, what was the solution? The agency said that it happened all the time - and basically asked which backgrounds her mother would be okay with. They sent a carer from a different - Asian - background, and everything then went smoothly...

Aussies are not referred to as South Africans - it's just as we have such a high number of South African's where I live - they are fondly abbreviated to "Sudens" but I thought that was too localised.

My friend from uni whose first language isn't English genuinely thought a corner shop was called a paki shop as that's what everyone called it in Glasgow where she went to school. She was when I told her what it actually meant. This was only 10 years ago.

YANBU to not want racist language being normalised around your ds obviously though.

I have a similar problem with some of the elderlies in our extended family. One in particular is very racist. I always have a quiet word with DS whenever we've visited about how some grownups don't quite see different people like we do and we should not repeat what they say as it's very rude. DS fortunately doesn't have a concept of racism (he's in an extremely diverse class and views loads of different backgrounds as normal) and long may that continue. Unfortunately the elderlies can't quite get their heads around the opposite and they certainly won't ever be invited to help out at DS's birthday parties!

married, do you think calling a person of South Asian origin a p* is comparable to calling an Australian an aussie?

It seems kind of sad that everyone wants to control every influence over their kids so vigilantly. There are many things I don't approve of in the way that my FIL acts and speaks (smoking, swearing, expressing ignorant opinions) but I wouldn't dream of stopping my DD from having a relationship with him as for all his faults he adores her and what she gains from him is far more than any damage his negative behaviour is likely to have on her.

Everyone is different, so what if grandad is a bit of a racist old git, he probably has other redeeming qualities! Your ds will have many different influences in his life, it's not hard to balance out a few ignorant comments of an old man.

I can't think of any that I use, which have a negative connection with a group of people

That's the smuggest line of all in a thread full of smug "more right-on than thous"

If those offended posters here treated old people with a fraction of the tolerance and understanding they apparently are prepared to extend to all other colours, creeds, sexes etc etc this thread wouldn't exist.

I do hope all your DiL will treat you with the same (lack of) consideration you are showing here.....

The trouble is, Amber, some children may repeat the choice phrases uttered by their "old racist git" family members, to the detriment of other children.

A good friend of mine is currently trying to deal with persistent low level racist bullying towards her daughter. No doubt the bullies are comfortable using the sort of language in question because it has been normalised through use in the home.

If your parents are generally not racial, then I think what you have done in explaining that it's not acceptable in today's language is fine.

I grew up with my parents referring to the p...corner shop and never thought it was racist - no different from using the term Aussie for Australians. Actually, I'm not actually sure when it was deemed racist. It was purely used as a way of referring to one shop, as opposed another. No racial intent intended at all.

Sorry, probably coming across all wrong, and not explaining myself very well. What I think I mean to say is that the odd comment or use non-PC word today doesn't mean you are racist, but maybe ill- informed as to what is acceptable today. Words change their meanings over time (eg. Gay).

Perhaps I've led a sheltered life but I have never heard the word Paki used in a racist way - just as an abbreviation. Generally I think my dc use the word Asian mainly because there are so many countries they don't want to use an incorrect term. We call our local shop Mr Patel's and my children call the owner Mr Patel.

I still think the OP and this thread is a gross over-reaction.

Perhaps I've led a sheltered life but I have never heard the word Paki used in a racist way - just as an abbreviation.

Really? I find this quite hard to believe. You must indeed have led a very sheltered life!

My former FiL used to repeatedly use disgusting racial epithets and express disgusting racist attitudes in the presence of my daughter. I had no choice but to prevent contact until he controlled himself. When she was old enough she grew to understand that his beliefs were morally wrong and challenged him herself. It sadly did damage her relationship w/ him because it is hard to reconcile beliefs like his with any sense of him being a good person. It was that extreme.

I think people are missing an important point here, which is that op's husband dealt with the incident. He told his father not to say that word again. We don't know exactly what was said, or what his father's reaction was, but that warning may have been perfectly adequate. Why would op go and stir everything up again by giving FIL her own personal telling off? Apart from the fact that would be very undermining of her husband, it may be completely unnecessary. Fine to say something if it happens again, but to wade in heavy handed in this situation would surely be wrong.

My partner has looked over my shoulder and told me I'm missing a point. That is that in Mumsnet World men are incapable of dealing adequately with most situations involving their children, the mothers are always going to have to step in and make sure the job's done properly. So obviously Op's husband didn't make himself clear enough and Op will need to go over and sort his dad out.

The OP has said that her PILs are racist.

Some of us have said that we have grown up having that word used as a term of abuse against our families.

But apparently we are ageist, paranoid or over-sensitive. Obviously the fact that some of you have not encountered racism means that it doesn't exist.

Tuppen

Good point. If it happens again then it needs addressing again.

To those posters who have no issue w/ the term 'Paki' try asking any people from Pakistan what they prefer to be referred to as. Ask them if they'd like to be called 'Paki'. And if (as I suspect) the answer is No then consider why you are comfortable w/ the idea of causing hurt and disrespect simply because you don't see the epithet as racist.

Echo a lot of what is said above but also make sure you have a word with your DS. I remember, at a similar age to him, my 'D'GF talking to me and my DB in explicit detail about what they'd done to the 'nips' in Burma during the war, and how they'd never buy Japanese products, and also a screaming match between him and DM when he'd used the other 'n' word...DM threw him out at that point, but as a child I just remember the atmosphere and was really confused and upset. At 4 I think I was old enough to be told how and why it was wrong, and then I'd have been a little less troubled by it iyswim.

I'm not going to buy the "he's in his 70s, it's hard to learn at that age what's acceptable" that word has been a term of abuse since I was a child in the 80s, so when the OP's FIL was in his 30s - I refuse to accept someone in their 30s is too stuck in their ways to realise they are insulting someone with their language - he has known for a long, long time that it's an insulting word, but has felt it acceptable to use it.

No one lives in a bubble from their teens until they are in their 70s/80s, we shouldn't pretend people in their 70s now have had no opportunity to realise their language and views are unacceptable and are now shocked at young people's views.

I think the OP's DH probably has dealt with it well, that doesn't mean she can't be angry about it too and trying to work out if she's right to be this angry.

FFS Don't have a word with your father-in-law. Your husband has already dealt with the situation. Give him some credit.

Married, AFAIK, as small children my DC never referred to a person of Asian origin as a Paki. Nor did their friends. Because no-one around them did. Schools have a duty to record and deal with all racist incidents. Luckily where I live, they are very rare as most children do not think these terms are acceptable in modern multi-ethnic Britain.

Jinsei- of course it is a problem if the child repeats the language in school but children I have taught in the past have had a pretty clear understanding that certain language or behaviour is unacceptable in the classroom and it is for the OP to make sure that her ds knows that this is not a nice thing to say.

It is a social skill that children have to learn to adapt their behaviour to different settings. I am not saying that she should not tell her child that he should never say such a thing, but just that you can't always stop other family members from having views or opinions that you disagree with.

no it is not a 'generation thing' my dad is 77 and has never/would never use language like this - also you are right if someone at the school hears your kid repeat this they will come down on it like the proverbial.

See my gran is 93 and wouldn't use the term.

I suppose it's because I know they are quite racist (got a petition up with an Asian family brought a business in the village) and so is dh's eldest brother who we have limited contact with as amongst other things he has been to prison for a racially motivated attack. His children (dh's nephews) spout similar bile and I've defriended them on FB because I don't want to read it. So possibly I am somewhat over sensitive to this because I do not want any of these attitudes to pass to ds.
Mind you somehow dh has turned out ok and so has his other brother.