about the feminism/WR area?

[fleacircus]

I don't like dogs, and I think most television is irredeemably stupid drivel and that there's no excuse for anyone with an actual life of their own to watch 'Made in Chelsea', and although I like knitting I don't really get the point of scrap-booking. Those are my opinions, and I'm entitled to hold them, and I would construct arguments to support them if pushed, but I don't go onto the TV thread and find people who like 'Made in Chelsea' and then go on about how wrong they are and when they get angry keep saying 'you just can't take it that other people don't share your opinions' until they get bored and give up on the thread altogether.

And I've got all the kids I want, thank you very much, so I'm not TTC, and I was lucky to conceive my kids in a very straightforward manner, so I don't actually know anything about how it feels not to, and I don't have any useful advice or insights for those who are TTC, and I don't have any medical expertise about TTC, so I've set my MN preferences not to display those threads.

So why is it that people who clearly have no interest in feminism or women's rights, and no knowledge of the often complex political, social and personal ideas being explored, and don't actually hope to learn anything or contribute anything of any value, hang around that area spoiling for a fight? Because there's a whole section of MN dedicated to expressing your opinions. It's this one. There's a question mark in the title and everything.

Or AIBU?

Building, did you mean that to sound like a cop out? Does your feminism mean that all is done and dusted and there is nothing left to discuss? Because you can just ignore those threads that don't appeal. Or even hide them if they irritate you that much. Or do what people have advised ^^ - ignore those that you don't agree with and post anyway.

roadwalker - very valid point. Since the 'start' of first wave feminism in the 1830s, there has been that complaint.

But then, it is the same for just about any political/social movement. MLK Jnr was hardly from skid row. It didn't make his thinking any less valid, or his movement any less effective.

Roadwalker- you seem passionate why not start a thread on that topic?

The only time I dared post on there, on what I thought was a very valid point and expected real discussion, I was told to FO
I would avoid posting on things I really care about now as it hurt me badly

Roadwwalker, I'd love to see your idea as a thread.

I think you might be surprised at the reception for a pro-working class feminism thread.

Feel free to run with the idea

actually, roadwalker, there are a lot of 'grass roots' feminists about, and a massive push for it to be about, by and for the women who are doubly (sometimes triply etc) disadvantaged.

Everything I read atm is American based, so I don't have any relevant stuff from the UK, but believe me, there are a LOT of women who are speaking up for (and from) the position of women of color, immigrants, economically disadvantaged etc. In fact, there are some pretty big national (US) conferences which are ONLY about such things, as the voice of white, mc women has been heard enough. Time to let some other people speak out.

Who told you to fuck off? Do you remember what your post was about?

I think the board has changed rw, do consider it.

I am not going to discuss the thread, it was too personal, but I worded it badly
I have a profession and a degree, I worked hard doing OU whist working in a factory and used that to get into doing a professional degree
But, and this is a big but, I still know I have a lack of a good education and I worded my post badly and was completely shot down by clever talk as well as incredibly rude people

You see, I have absolutely no problem with someone saying, 'I think...' and then there being a discussion. I've done that many many times.

I have a problem with someone saying, 'I think ...' then someone pointing out some reading, or well know ideas etc, and the person who had a bit of a thought saying, 'oh you refuse to change you opinion to agree with me.'

Sometime a discussion does change minds, but often it's just a chance to air views & work out how to accept both views, rather than changing someone's mind.

And people shouldn't be so quick to say FO, but there are so many times when a discussion starts, and a poster 'innocently' asks why the exact opposite isn't true, then after a few posts it becomes clear that they only reason they are posting is to derail the thread, then accuse people of not listening to them. it has happened so often that a brusque FO tends to be dished out. Unfortunately that rather upsets the genuinely innocent and doesn't really stop the ones who are just shit stirring for the sake of it. Sadly, I can only remember one time that a poster appeared to genuinel not get the issue and want to know more. Every other example I think of was someone being a pita.

I can't actually believe that the criticisms on this thread are still being raised. Apart from roadwalker - I do think that both some feminists and non-feminists miss giving a voice to non-MC women at times, the latter much more than the former, imo.

But, really, you can't all be complaining now, surely? The board is nothing like it was previously. To its detriment, imho, but surely that's what you all wanted. It's yours for the taking, even if you have to put up with the odd annoying old schooler.

Or do you think there's nothing left to talk about?

YANBU i've found FWR a really interesting place and I have learned a lot. I've also found it funny and full of people who are supportive and patient if you are not just piling in to have a go or "teach the feminists the error of their ways".

Despite what some people have gleefully said, it is a special place and there are a lot of special people on there who are knowledgeable, interesting and make it a fascinating and inspiring place to be. Just like many other places on MN, where there are people who know a lot about their subjects. This is a good thing and should not be derided.

I can understand people being put off by the level of discussion, which can be stretching (eg when people use words like dittany - no idea if that is a word or a typo). I really enjoyed a recent thread about defining rape, as it made me think about things in different ways. Ultimately you will always get derailers and small-minded people, but that's the price of such a fantastic and diverse site like MN.

I visit the FWR board usually when it pops up in Active Conversations. I've learned a lot about various important feminist matters but there are occasions when the extreme feminists make statements which just need to be counteracted.

"Extreme Feminists" sounds like there are posts about killing baby boys and knifing husbands.

Dittany was a poster that many people didn't appreciate. And many others did. She was either a touchstone or the centre of all that is wrong with feminism in all the world. No half measures.

I post on the feminist board quite a lot Im working class. Ive never been made to feel unwelcome there.

ahh - but fraggle, no-one banned the men, we just said how we'd like a pub to be, which was not male-centric.

and comments like yours are exactly what people mean about feeling attacked, even when in the fwr section.

when people talk about 'extreme feminists' they often show that they really don't know what the full range of feminism includes.

'radical' or 'extreme' feminists would like to see a world where the balance of power was redressed by women being in power for the same length of time as men have been.

people who believe that we should all be treated with respect as equals often get called extreme/radical when they are really just being egalitarian.

e.g. someone complains about a sexist joke/comment, they get called professionally offended, lacking a sense of humor, extreme feminists, man hater. when all they want is to ba able to walk down the road without someone heckling them.

So - again WHY do some people go to the bother of going on a thread they don't agree with, just to do something like that? I don't bother to go out of my way to contradict everyone I ever hear saying something I disagree with. I may do sometimes, but generally I just don't bother with threads where I think something like that is happening. So why do so many threads on fwr get that kind of attention?

I only post on 2-3 boards on MN, because I just don't have the time to do otherwise. But I'd be genuinely surprised if any board was trolled as systematically and as frequently as Feminism. It happens most days and it especially happens at night-time, when MNHQ are less likely to receive reports or deal quickly, with those received.

These aren't posters who want a genuine debate or conversation. They are posters who make one inflammatory comment on 20+ zombie threads therefore causing genuine active threads to drop off the page. Some of the comments made are so disgusting and so triggering to women who may have experienced sexual violence- and they remain there until someone reports them and MNHQ gets around to deal with them.

Or they persistently derail threads to talk about something that is nothing to do with the thread topic. Polite requests to start a thread of their own are ignored and unfortunately some posters rise to the bait and engage, even if it is to disagree and explain why.

I suspect the reason the regulars on that board don't always ignore after reporting is because they got attacked so much for being unfriendly and unwelcoming to people with a contrary view, they over-compensate now by aiming for polite engagement when actually, the best thing to do would be to report and ignore the obvious trolls and if someone is trying to derail or divert a thread to discuss his own agenda- to stop engaging with that person and go back to discussing the thread topic.

Sure, the anti-feminists on here will no doubt go back to criticising a whole board and even more illogically, a whole political movement because of the perceived 'unfriendliness' of posters on a chat forum, but so what?

To me, it's simply not good enough to say 'it happens on other boards too'. You might be right, but I'm still not convinced those of you saying that appreciate the real scale of the problem, or that you appreciate that feminist writers are currently getting the same sort of hate speech online as happens on this site so regularly. Hate speech towards women is IMO far more common than hate speech towards dog owners, or chicken keepers. Some of you might remember the abuse Mary Beard received online after a Question Time appearance. What happens on MNet is a reflection of what's happening to women and feminists outside of it.

We are all part of the solution and ironically, those of you who are defending the right to free speech appear to be ignoring how silencing these tactics can be. Whatever your views on feminism and the feminism board, I cannot think that many of you agree with the behaviour I'm describing or would seek to uphold it as defensible. This isn't about a genuine attempt at discussion. It's about trolling, derailing and hate speech.

I'd like to see a three-pronged approach.

1. For all posters to support everyone's right to use this talkboard and abide by the rules of engagement, reporting where you see infringements.

1. For MNHQ to deal with reports more quickly, especially at night-time.

1. For all posters to stop engaging with posters who are ignoring requests to start their own threads when they are persistently trying to derail a thread to discuss their own agenda. Ignoring is by far the best tactic after reporting. This way threads will stay on topic and posters who genuinely want to discuss the issue the thread raises, can do so, without wading through a tedious argument.

Actually, I think it's the other way around. Feminist-challengers are not willing to even try and consider the feminist viewpoint that is put forward. That is the biggest sticking point. Precious few of those put forward anything other than an "I choose to do x, I'm a feminist and therefore X is feminist" point of view. There are plenty here who would back that up, so I would queston why they don't and actually drown out those you are complaining about (they are few in number). All that is being said is that an individual's stance is not necessarily a feminist one just because they have a vagina. Or not even that, if we are being picky.

Feminism is a serious business. If you are just playing lip-service, then you will obviously find the FWR section uncomfortable if you can't argue your corner as a feminist. But if you can't do that or find at least one area where you can discuss alongside those you disagree in other areas, then I would question why you are a feminist.

There must be some common ground, no? Just one little bit? Isn't that bit important to you, as a feminist?

"'radical' or 'extreme' feminists would like to see a world where the balance of power was redressed by women being in power for the same length of time as men have been."

No, no, no. Radical does not mean extreme, nor does it mean women being in power.

YABU
Sometimes I get into a bun fight on feminism and sometimes I agree 100%

I'm perhaps more moderate and more right wing than many on the board. I'm also fairly old. I date from before girls did woodwork and when equal pay was still being fought for in principle (I know it's still not achieved in practice).

I find Pg. 3 and all this fuss about lads mags a total distraction from issues like real equal pay, truly flexible family friendly working hours for both sexes and genuinely useful childcare.

Also I hate the PC pussyfooting around international woman's issue. Religion does not excuse you treating woman appallingly and it's time we stopped allowing FGM, forced marriages etc in our own country and those we trade with.

I agree. The word 'radical' in this context means 'root and branch' and therefore changing all systems, beliefs and practices that do not support equality. It is certainly not about imposing matriarchies and it is not an extreme viewpoint at all.

YABU OP. Unlike TTC, Telly Addicts and Crafting, Feminism effects us all. Sometimes the posters on this site have something to say about it, hardly surprising as MN is a predominantly female site.

Maybe some poster's views don't tally with the political and idealistic view of the regular posters on FWR. But as it is the thoughts and experiences of actual women who use this site, I think it's ok.