about the feminism/WR area?

[fleacircus]

I don't like dogs, and I think most television is irredeemably stupid drivel and that there's no excuse for anyone with an actual life of their own to watch 'Made in Chelsea', and although I like knitting I don't really get the point of scrap-booking. Those are my opinions, and I'm entitled to hold them, and I would construct arguments to support them if pushed, but I don't go onto the TV thread and find people who like 'Made in Chelsea' and then go on about how wrong they are and when they get angry keep saying 'you just can't take it that other people don't share your opinions' until they get bored and give up on the thread altogether.

And I've got all the kids I want, thank you very much, so I'm not TTC, and I was lucky to conceive my kids in a very straightforward manner, so I don't actually know anything about how it feels not to, and I don't have any useful advice or insights for those who are TTC, and I don't have any medical expertise about TTC, so I've set my MN preferences not to display those threads.

So why is it that people who clearly have no interest in feminism or women's rights, and no knowledge of the often complex political, social and personal ideas being explored, and don't actually hope to learn anything or contribute anything of any value, hang around that area spoiling for a fight? Because there's a whole section of MN dedicated to expressing your opinions. It's this one. There's a question mark in the title and everything.

Or AIBU?

Well, we can't win can we

Make the discussions too academic/intellectual/middle class or they are too lowbrow/unintellligent/naive/6th form (insert whatever criticism best fits your beef)

Which is it ?

Yes, because it couldn't possibly be that there's a whole lot of individuals participating as they choose, and probably being more or less intellectual/practical/highbrow/lowbrow depending on the topic they're discussing.

Hey, I have a novel idea

People get out of the FWR what they put in!

D'ya think it'll catch on ?

I find it hard to understand why people seem to think there is some kind of homogenous group of feminists on FWR. There is no party line or general consensus. As LRD says, there are a lot of individuals. The board is obviously going to attract a lot of feminists but there is a lot of disagreement among the feminists there. A lot of other feminist discussion sites have a set of feminist principles you have to adhere to or you will get modded out. I like that FWR is open to anyone. I like it best when feminists are discussing feminist political issues (especially class analysis) from different feminist perspectives (e.g. the consent thread, which is excellent) and are not interrupted by MRAs crapping all over the thread or some tedious NAMALT comment. I find the anti-feminist posts very boring for the most part, it's stuff you hear everywhere all the time.

garlic,

You wrote:
I can say 'birds fly' without having to explain that there are also some birds that do not fly. It is generally true, to the degree that I may speak as if it were always true.

Perhaps I am a pedant because I can't imagine ever saying "birds fly" without qualification, but for the sake of argument, OK, fine.

But then:
Some feminists say 'men rape'. I don't like it, but I understand that the speaker means the vast majority of rapists are men.

Following your birds example, the correct reading of the phrase "men rape" would instead be:
Some feminists say 'men rape' without having to explain that there are also some men that do not rape. It is generally true, to the degree that I may speak as if it were always true.

Probably that's not the interpretation that the speaker intended, but it's what some people would hear.

We as a society have come to avoid negative generalisations in our conversations for good reason. (Even to the extent that a completely factual statement like "black (as in afro-Caribbean, not BME) people commit a disproportionate amount of crime" is very awkward to hear, in either an academic or an informal context.)

I disagree that this is "a linguistic point rather than a political one". It is both.

How is class analysis academically dodgy? I mean, I get that it can be misapplied and that is annoying, but it's fundamentally sound, surely?

I get what you mean about not defining terms. I admit, when someone says 'what does patriarchy mean', I tend to assume it's not that they know several possible meanings and want to pin down the term, it's that don't know at all. And I will take on board the possibility this may be wrong.

I do think, though, you have to be fair and acknowledge that there are shitloads of threads defining terms already, so it's not 'lazy', whatever else it is.

NAMALT ?

"not all men are like that" sorry, thought that was well known.

kotinka out of interest, what is the party line?

I dunno, kot.

I think for me, the party line thing is something I want to argue against, because I know for absolutely certain that I got stamped all over by some of the people who no longer post, and I'm very glad of the change. And I know some current posters with whom I will reliably disagree. But I do still know that there are other things that tie us together as feminists.

I don't think describing it as a 'party line' works for me, because it implies we all sit down and work out what we're going to argue, and I don't think we do.

All branches of feminism use a class analysis. If you don't agree with feminism, that is fine. But it is a key part of feminism.

ah, penny drops

I thought it might be along the lines of NMN (not my Nigel)

I'm a statistics bore, Fester. I know what you mean. But I'm not so wrapped up in my own obsessions that I can't hear what somebody properly means when they say 'average', for example. Likewise I understand what feminists properly mean when they use the terms above. If I don't, I ask.

Loads of other ideologies than feminism use class analysis, too.

NAMALT - help?

Not all men are like that = NAMALT

It would be interesting to know which alternative views you feel feminists should have accepted, Kotinka.

thanks!

MRA = male rights activist