about the feminism/WR area?

[fleacircus]

I don't like dogs, and I think most television is irredeemably stupid drivel and that there's no excuse for anyone with an actual life of their own to watch 'Made in Chelsea', and although I like knitting I don't really get the point of scrap-booking. Those are my opinions, and I'm entitled to hold them, and I would construct arguments to support them if pushed, but I don't go onto the TV thread and find people who like 'Made in Chelsea' and then go on about how wrong they are and when they get angry keep saying 'you just can't take it that other people don't share your opinions' until they get bored and give up on the thread altogether.

And I've got all the kids I want, thank you very much, so I'm not TTC, and I was lucky to conceive my kids in a very straightforward manner, so I don't actually know anything about how it feels not to, and I don't have any useful advice or insights for those who are TTC, and I don't have any medical expertise about TTC, so I've set my MN preferences not to display those threads.

So why is it that people who clearly have no interest in feminism or women's rights, and no knowledge of the often complex political, social and personal ideas being explored, and don't actually hope to learn anything or contribute anything of any value, hang around that area spoiling for a fight? Because there's a whole section of MN dedicated to expressing your opinions. It's this one. There's a question mark in the title and everything.

Or AIBU?

[mayorquimby]

Got to agree with suelford.
I read the board a fair bit but don't contribute much as tbh I don't often have much to contribute. But I do think that there still is a noticeable attitude that those who disagree on certain issues only do so because they don't fully understand the issue/ are socially conditioned to think that way/ are being tricked by the patriarchy.

Now whether they're right or not I couldn't tell you but it certainly doesn't foster an atmosphere of progressive debate or discussion if people are saying "feminism/the feminist position is x" and the people who agree are enlightened etc but those that disagree only do so not because they have thought about the issue and arrived at a different conclusion logically but instead disagree for reasons which the enlightened will use as confirmation of their superior understanding.


Now it is nowhere near each and every thread or each and every poster. But to an outsider anyway it seems to be a recurring and influential trend on those boards.

[kickassangel]

I think that there is some confusion about whether being concerned about things that affect women is the same as getting involved in a feminist discussion. The point about the spirituality boards is a good one.

As someone who went to a church school, I may well have a lot of experience and ideas, but I wouldn't join a discussion about spirituality as I have never really studied theology a whole load. I might ask some questions, or lurk, but I wouldn't regularly appear there saying that the church I went to did xxx, therefore those people (many of whom I assume have significantly more knowledge about the subject) should listen to my opinion, even though it is my own rambling thought.

There isn't a person on this planet who hasn't had some involvement with being/knowing at least one woman, so everyone has an opinion. But there's actually significantly fewer people who have done any real reading or studying on the topic. The section is meant to be a special interest topic, just like others such as super furry animals or spirituality or whatever. Anyone is welcome to join in, but at least have some awareness of whether or are offering opinions rather than some more studied response. Because personal experience and opinion are not the same level of understanding as years of study.

It would be crass and impolite to butt into a discussion in any area with nothing much than some opinions, when it is in a special interest group. Of course, there are no set rules against it, but people tend to do it more in some areas than others.

So, why do so many people think it IS OK to do this in the feminist area, but they wouldn't do it in another area?

[Arealmanithink]

HaHaHaHa Yep.. You've got it!! I totally agree.. It's entertainment..

[happyon]

YANBU. We are not talking about polite disagreement; feminists are used to that because we disagree with each other all the time. We are talking about a seemingly irresistible urge to butt in, control, derail and shut down feminist discussion. It goes beyond anything one sees on other boards.

It's disappointing but hardly surprising: feminists have been subjected to this kind of treatment for centuries. Feminism is deeply threatening, it provokes strong reactions, utterly predictable, but tedious nonetheless.

[Pan]

kick - I'd have to disagree, the section isn't meant to be a 'specialist interest topic', I don't think - it has a 'womens rights' part in the title as well, so not necessarily 'specialist' whether that's academic or activist based.
But yes you can envisage some posters being turned off by lots of treatise being quoted and the impression they are thus more 'worthy' than other posters' views, as if there is a linear progression in awareness and it's the same 'line' for everyone to produce the same conclusions.
Trolls and invaders who have nothing to say about WRs - I'm surprised a bit that they are given so much attention before the plug is pulled.

[CoteDAzur]

"I wouldn't join a discussion about spirituality as I have never really studied theology a whole load"

You have completely misunderstood the point of MN topics and threads They are not only for professionals. You are allowed to post without a relevant diploma. You are allowed to talk about experiences and opinions.

People on Behaviour & Development at not all paediatricians and psychologists. Those on Spirituality are not all theologians. And MNers don't need to have studied the history of feminism to participate in Feminism & Women's Rights threads.

"Because personal experience and opinion are not the same level of understanding as years of study"

If you wish to converse at that level, find a professional website that requires credentials. MN is not such a place.

As Fright said before, all this was debated, fought over, and settled a while back.

[kickassangel]

I'm not even meaning any formal academic study. I mean just knowing some of the basic tenets of feminist thought.

e.g. the concept of 'othering'. time without number, people have been on the boards saying, "well I don't feel like some kind of other person" (or similar) without having ever heard of the idea of 'othering' and what that means.

I'm not saying that you have to have years of formal academic training, but if you've never read a book about genderization in your life, bring an awareness of that to the forum. If you are going just on your opinion/experience, and there is someone else who appears to have more knowledge/experience, then at least accept that your opinion is that. It doesn't in any way mean that your voice has less agency - feminism is big on giving agency to the individual - but that you probably don't have as much background knowledge and should be open to all that that implies.

I would very much hope that people who were giving out advice on behavior/development (or anywhere, really) would either say 'ime/imo' or have at least read one book, been to a class or something before giving advice to someone asking for support!

I am, btw, seeing this as separate from the issue of out & out trolls, and responding more to the comments earlier about how some people on fwr seem to have set ideas about certain topics. Well, after reading lots of articles/campaigning and having had the same discussion many times, then maybe they do know more than someone who hasn't thought about it all that much before.

And Pan, I'm saying special interest, not qualified academic. Anyone is welcome to join in, but fwr isn't in general chat, it's in a section for people with an interest in that section, however passing their interest may be. I would say the same for any boards except chat & AIBU, really - you see what interests you, and have a look around. What you don't do (if you're polite) is trolling, or just saying, well my opinion counts for more than the years of reading, action, study etc that some (by no means all) posters have, so it shows how close minded they are.

[catgirl1976]

Surely, when it comes to women's rights, women's actual experiences have just as much, if not more, relevance than theory?

[CoteDAzur]

kickass - re "I would very much hope that people who were giving out advice on behavior/development (or anywhere, really) would either say 'ime/imo' or have at least read one book, been to a class or something before giving advice to someone asking for support!"

No, absolutely no need to have a qualification or even to have read a single book to give advice on the Behaviour & Development board, or anywhere else on MN. This includes the Feminism & Women's Rights board.

Again, you have completely misunderstood the purpose of MN and would likely better enjoy a professional/academic website where credentials are required.

"I'm saying special interest, not qualified academic. Anyone is welcome to join in, but fwr isn't in general chat, it's in a section for people with an interest in that section, however passing their interest may be"

Like the Adult Fiction board, for example. And yet you don't need to have a Literature degree to give opinions in it.

As someone said downthread, FWR board isn't special and it is not only for MNers you deem worthy of posting there.

[Viviennemary]

My experience is so far that if you don't agree with them then your opinions aren't really welcome.

[catgirl1976]

If someone posted on the Spirituality boards as they were interested in religion, I wouldn't have expected them to have needed to read the Bible before they were allowed to post their view.

Nor would I feel someone who had read, or even studied the bible had a more valid point of view on the subject.

[catgirl1976]

Also, re your comment about people on the Behaviour and Development Board having read a book or been to a class........

If I posted a question on that board, and two people responded, one who had never read a book or been to a class in their entire life but had raised 5 children and been through the same situation I was experiencing, and one who had never raised a child but had a Phd in Child Development......I would be equally interested in both view points, but the one based on experience would have more resonance to me than the one based entirely on theory. But maybe that's just me.

[Viviennemary]

A person who is an atheist can post on the spirituality boards and have a discussion. So I don't see why somebody who doesn't consider themselves a feminist can't post on these boards without getting shouted down for daring to disagree with the party line.

[SeaSickSal]

I really don't get people who come on a discussion and debate forum and then expect people not to discuss and debate.

Personally I find it extremely interesting to discuss things with people who have a differing viewpoint and to hear their arguments and voice mine. If nothing else it demands that you question your own opinions rather than just doggedly holding them without ever considering an alternative.

[kickassangel]

catgirl - depends what you're talking about. when talking about what it's like to walk down the street and have some guy yell 'nice tits' then the personal story counts for more. if talking about the % of women who suffer from verbal abuse, then not so much.

OK - one example - there's a quite well know graph called 'the saddest graph you'll see today' (or similar) that shows figures for rape, including false allegations. On the same page there's the explanation of how the figures were arrived at, and margin for errors etc. Yet I have seen numerous posters who didn't even read what was on the page, and started spouting about what if, I think, imo etc.

When I say someone who has read, I really do mean that they may have seen that one article, but bothered to read it. Saying that I'm demanding a diploma is a straw man fallacy.

And if I posted on behaviour/development or asked in rl for some help with an issue, and I later found that someone had only the experience of babysitting a kid for a while, never read so much as a magazine article, and still they tried to advice me as if their opinion was somehow truth, then I would be extremely pissed off. I don't think that means I've misunderstood mn, but that I have understood what is commonly part of dialogue - don't pretend your opinion is a fact or worth more than it is.

That is all that I am aiming for here, not some high fallootin' academic esoteric purely theoretical discussion. Just that people who are basing their comments purely on opinion at least say that, and perhaps listen/read what others say, rather than just repeating their opinion, then saying that other people are being stubborn, when that other person might have at least read a few pieces, or done some sociology somewhere along the line. And if someone pretends that they know more than they do, or that they are somehow better because they've read a few more books, then they're an arse. I'm only suggesting that other people at least stop to think,, 'hang on, xxx has read about this, maybe they do know something. I won't be dismissive and say that they didn't listen to me, even though they have just responded to me, I will perhaps think about this a bit, instead of going off in a huff.'

[BobbyHepburn]

Feminists need to engage with non-feminists and borderline feminists if feminism is to continue, spread and develop. There's no point in a forum on which only "true feminists" can post without being picked on. It's the same attitude you get on Guardian CiF with the talk of "Tory Trolls" etc, what is the point of echo chambers where right minded people can hear their own opinions repeated back to them? Sooner or later those people have to go out into the real world (or the polling station) and they may be shocked at the opinions of the general public if they have been sequestered for a considerable amount of time.

[DebrisSlide]

I am fairly disengaged with MN as a whole now after the whole FWR shakedown, but I do find it odd that the (what seemed like) hundreds of posters who claimed that they were feminists with lots to say but didn't want to post because of dittany have not been flooding the FWR boards since she left.

You won. It's all yours. Why aren't you posting?

[CailinDana]

I agree catgirl but if for example there was a thread about the concept of the immaculate conception and someone posted "of course jesus wasn't immaculately conceived!" then 10 regulars from the feminist board piled in discussing the fallacy of virginity as purity would their contribution be valid? Or just a nonsensical and highly irritating derailment?

[Buildingamystery]

Why aren't we posting? Me personally, I'm not a professional offence-taker like a few regular posters on the women's rights boards seem to be. I am a feminist but really some of the threads would leave your head spinning.

[kickassangel]

See, I'm very interested in discussion.

So - yes, you can be an atheist and go on spirituality, but if someone is discussing monotheism then you don't just rock up and say 'hey, god doesn't exist' then the person gives a long account of why there is evidence from many times and places that there is a god, and just turn round and say, 'god doesn't exist, you didn't listen to me. you're just dismissive and rude.'

which is a very common scenario in fwr.

I've massively oversimplified it, but that is the kind of situation that I am saying shouldn't exist. not because there's something special about fwr, but because that's just a really opinionated and arrogant way to behave.

another example - the thread recently about the 'perfect' feminist pub. no where did women say they didn't like men, there were lots of different ideas about the perfect pub, including a complete clash on music/no music. the idea of cowboys serving drinks was banned as objectification. Then posters started coming on, saying feminists all hate men cos they like the idea of having a quiet drink without kids/men around for an hour or two. No-one had said anything anti-men, just that they would like a pub that it felt OK to go to as a woman by themselves. That is the kind of thing it would be nice not to have happen. IF women wanting a bit of imaginary downtime without men around is man hating, then how do we describe the rest of history, and the number of male only places in it?

[CailinDana]

Oh and never to miss the opportunity for a plug there is a really excellent thread on consent running at the moment. It's long but totally worth reading. Then just join in with your own thoughts.

[Viviennemary]

Absolutely BobbyHepburn. What a shame those on the feminist board just do not realise this. In fact they are alienating people never mind getting them on side. IMHO.

[roadwalker]

YABU
although I believe in equality and that I am equal in my relationship I would never go there
I am working class and the feminist board is IMO very, very middle class
full of high opinionated middle class women in a love fest praising each others intelligence
its enough to turn me to the daily mail
I think working class women need to find their own brand of feminism

[kickassangel]

and I'd like to point out that I live in the real world, pretty actively, but that when I'm in a space with the heading 'fwr' I just want to be able to refer to some feminist ideas without being called a man hater, professionally offended, no sense of humor etc etc.

The heading of the board does indicate that a certain topic is being discussed. There is the option to just not click on those threads, why actively go onto them then tell the people there that they aren't listening to you? It is easier to avoid them than to go on them, why do people bother to do it? Why not just shrug and pass on by?

And the broad range of feminists allows for plenty of discussion without having to get into the whole 'man haters' labelling etc.