to think that Hamzah Kahn's father should be sent down alongside his mother?

[Bogeyface]

Hamzah's father, after his ex was found guilty of starving their 4 year old to death, said that he would "have to live with that for the rest of my life".

Live with what? With the fact that he did fuck all? His son lay dead for 2 years and his father had no clue, yet makes out he is a loving dad. If he was so loving he would have seen his child, seen the state of the house and the state the (his? sorry, I dont know if they were all his) other children were in. But he didnt. The 2 years between little Hamzah's death and his discovery should not have gone unchecked by any good dad, but in this case it did. At the very least, he would have gone to court to gain access, involved CAFCASS, social services, etc. But he did nothing.

Amanda Suttons stepfather says that she wasnt helped by the social services, which clearly she wasnt, but he puts the blame firmly at their feet. What was he doing? Was he offering to help look after the kids? Clean the house? Did he report her for help? No. He did nothing.

Seems to me that a lot of people who this little boy and his siblings should have been able to rely on preferred to look away.

AIBU to think that his father is just as culpable in his death as his mother?

And that fact that agencies ignored his concerns mean nothing I guess. He tried, but he wasn't believed.

I am not excusing him, because he doesn't have a very nice history, but I don't see why some of you are pinning this all on him.

Who is pinning it all on him ?

So a woman lets her child die in horrible circumstances & it's the father's fault. That doesn't surprise me on MN! Of course it isn't the mother's fault! hmm

Have you actually read the thread?

I said that he was equally culpable, not that it was all his fault. Yes she actually committed the crime, but he did nothing to prevent it and that in my eyes makes him just as guilty. The child did not grow from the size of a 9 month old baby, that couldnt have happened in the year after the father left. That type of abuse was ongoing for much longer/. He said that she didnt feed or change the child, yet didnt do it himself. That means he was just as guilty of neglect as she was.

He did not inform the authorities, he told the police once. He was told to tell SS which he didnt, and didnt force the issue anywhere, he also doesnt appear to have pushed for access given that the child was dead for 2 years and he didnt know.

She deserves to rot in hell for what she did, but equally, so does he.

The fact that he had no access at all tells me that he didnt fight for it

My dad fought tooth & nail for access to us, only my mums lies were so fucking big & so fucking convincing that he was denied all the way. When he finally did get access, she used to take us out everytime he was due to visit/pick us up, convincing us that he wasn't turning up.

When he took it back to court, we told the courts (or our representative) we didn't want to see him, because coupled with his 'non attendance' she told US lie upon lie to turn us against him.

I spent over 10 yrs hating my dad because of her lies.

And yes, I have seen proof of this. My dad kept everything to show us how hard he tried to see us. And I lost 10 yrs with him.

My point is, you just DO NOT know what goes on in someone's life. I can't believe that you have decided he is to blame for this because he didn't try. You don't know he didn't try. You can see how troubled she was, her home was a mess, she got her children to lie on her behalf, yet you don't think that she could have been devious or sneaky enough to prevent the father from seeing his kids?

Ok, the access issue aside.....

What is his excuse for the abuse and neglect the little one and the other children suffered while he was still living there?

Hamzah was 4 when he died, the size of a 9 month old baby. Yet his parents had lived together until he was 3. Are you seriously saying that this man has no hand at all in the death of his child?

I can't believe that you have decided he is to blame for this

I havent. I said that he was equally to blame for this.

Clearly your own life has coloured your view (I am so sorry that your mother did that to you), but sadly most men who dont see their children these days are ones who choose not to. It is very very rare that fathers are not awarded supervised access at the very least, even dangerous men are awarded it if they fight for it (sadly).

Different, this is not about you. Hamzah's father was living there until the child was 3 1/2. He was not allowed to approach the mother (not the children) after pleading guilty to battery. There are thousands of fathers who have access, even unsupervised, after convictions against the mother.

I am not lessoning her culpability. But I would not want his to go un-noticed.

He didn't try. He had his chance to say in court what he did when he was there. He failed to do so.

Did you read the timeline I posted? All focussed on her. Why is there no mention of him in any of it, when he was living there too? It was a litany of what she failed to do vis a vis HVs etc. Why not him?

It's about time the spotlight was put on fathers and their equal responsbilities.

MichelleRouxJnr Sorry for picking your post out in particular, but you said
"I'm not laying blame with Ms Hutton here but..."

Whyever not, I would

I want to know why the police havent charged him with anything. I have thought about it and can only think that because they split and she moved, and possibly because his children wont speak against him, they couldnt get enough evidence to secure a conviction.

There has to be a reason, surely the police wouldnt just investigate her and not him?

Or that, once the NRP is out of the picture it absolves them of all responsibility.

But, yes, I think they based the neglect charges on the scenario they saw when they found the body. Which, in my mind, is separate to the the scenario before Hamzah died.

Did he say in the interview whether he had the other childfen with him? Because there is no reason why he wouldn't have since her arrest, is there?

That is the NRP with parental resonsibility, btw. Or, as he was for the majority of Hamzah's life, one of the residen parents.

Look, she was clearly not up to the task of being a good parent. But neither was he. But he ensured that he didn't have to stand scrutiny by battering her.

What, exactly, do we as a society expect of fathers? Because at the minute it seems like nothing is the answer.

He didnt no, and I find that interesting. The interview was all about him and how he felt and how he will have to live with it. At no point did he say about how hard it would be on the other children, how he was focussing on them etc.

Tbh, if I was him I wouldnt have given an interview at all, I would be too ashamed which tells me that he feels that he has done nothing wrong.

There are aways people on MN wanting to switch the genders on threads and stories. Try switching it on this one. What would be said about a mother who lived with the child from birth to 3 1/2, assaulted their partner and raised their concern once during the police interview for said assault (for which the were convicted).

Would she be seen to have done enough?

YANBU, there are a lot of guilty people in this sad case and it's not just Amanda Hutton. His Father should have been seeing him and what about the older strong lads?, his Brothers?. Social Services are an utter disgrace too, like after little Baby Peter Connelly was murdered they said "lessons will be learnt" well when?. They haven't been!. Poor little boys, it is very sad

OP, The police haven't charged him because he didn't do it, neither was he an accessory to it. They were no longer together and he had an order on him telling him not to go near her.

She did it. That is the inconvenient fact.

I think some posters on here are also unaware of/ignoring how easily the RP mother can avoid access if they want to, and how little chance the father had of being believed, especially if you already have a restraining order and a conviction for DV.

Bogeyface

My dad would say: 'It's like bloody banging your head against a brick wall isn't it?' (My speech comma key doesn't work)

Maybe the answer is YABU in making the assumption that men can take any blame whatsoever in the neglect of their children. It's a woman's job, don't ch' know?

I offer you a & . You can save the for later if that's your preference. But I'll eat mine now, cause that's how I roll.

April 21, 2009 - Pc Maria Furness conducts a “welfare check” on Hutton’s house after some of the children are left at school at picking up time. The officer said the house was clean and tidy and Hamzah seemed OK. Hutton appeared to be under the influence of something

So police sighted him & then house in Dec 2009 & didn't raise concerns, so things deteriorated in 8mths? I fail to see how the police officer would think a kid of 4 looking so small as to be wearing baby clothes was OK!

So police sighted him & the house in April 2009 (not Dec as I stated)

Maybe it wasn't him? His twin perhaps or another sibling.

The 'mum' seems like a selfish, nasty, manipulative piece of work. That's the worst of it all - she had the presence of mind to hide, lie, manipulate and knew that she had done wrong (otherwise why lie, threaten and try to hide the truth). She continued to claim (not receive but claim) benefits in relation to her dead child.

The 'dad' sounds like a feckless, selfish, lazy idiot who did nothing in the time he lived with this child to help him. This child did not shrink to baby size in the months between the dad leaving and his death. Noone has mentioned any reason for the child being so tiny apart from him starving. Systematic neglect and starvation will stunt growth and development. He wasn't an emaciated four year old, he was a child who did not develop past 9 months of age.

I hope she gags on every mouthful of food served to her in jail. There is no punishment that could fit this crime.

LazyJane are you being deliberately obtuse?

A child does not develop as normal, bone growth etc to the age of 3 and then shrink to the size a baby under the age of one. It is physically impossible. At no point has a growth disorder or genetic issue been mentioned as the cause for the childs size, just neglect by starving.

Yes he died whilst in his mothers sole care, but the years while he was living with both parents started the downward spiral during which he father could have helped him but didnt. That is obvious to anyone with half a brain.

No one is saying it wasnt her fault, but we are saying that he should be held responsible for his part in it.

Failing to protect a child from abuse is as much a crime as carrying out the abuse itself.

Some people will always excuse men's bad behaviour.

and some will always excuse the woman's behaviour whilst blaming the man.
No-one has said that he was a fantastic father but have argued that he not as equally culpable as the mother.

Nobody, but nobody, has excused this woman's behaviour. You haven't read the thread properly, BBJ

This is a thread about him

There are plenty of other threads about her culpability.

I don't even think he is guilty of DA.

This women abused all her kids, she is a manipulative person. I believe that she lied to the police over the DA

The fault lays solely on Amanda Hutton.