to think that Hamzah Kahn's father should be sent down alongside his mother?

[Bogeyface]

Hamzah's father, after his ex was found guilty of starving their 4 year old to death, said that he would "have to live with that for the rest of my life".

Live with what? With the fact that he did fuck all? His son lay dead for 2 years and his father had no clue, yet makes out he is a loving dad. If he was so loving he would have seen his child, seen the state of the house and the state the (his? sorry, I dont know if they were all his) other children were in. But he didnt. The 2 years between little Hamzah's death and his discovery should not have gone unchecked by any good dad, but in this case it did. At the very least, he would have gone to court to gain access, involved CAFCASS, social services, etc. But he did nothing.

Amanda Suttons stepfather says that she wasnt helped by the social services, which clearly she wasnt, but he puts the blame firmly at their feet. What was he doing? Was he offering to help look after the kids? Clean the house? Did he report her for help? No. He did nothing.

Seems to me that a lot of people who this little boy and his siblings should have been able to rely on preferred to look away.

AIBU to think that his father is just as culpable in his death as his mother?

It does appear he was denied access that was his excuse but I feel he could have done a lot more to ensure the well being of his little boy.It's all rather sickening tbh and makes me feel very upset and annoyed and i do feel like the father should have tried to get help.It's a shockingly dreadful case

"For the reason above. You seem to be having trouble understanding a very simple argument."
when linked with
"He didn't have a medical history"
means that we don't know if he was a small child.
We don't know of any medical reasons why he could have fitted in to a baby grow.
We don't know.

"'Throughout Hamzah's life, Hutton had tried to avoid health professionals having any access to him. She refused entry to health visitors who called at the home, Hamzah was never given any immunisations and never saw a GP.' BBC NEWS"
That would be the mother then?

You are also ignoring that she threatened to kill other siblings if the eldest told anyone. that would be another indication of abuse to me.

I can't help but think, with the very little i have read about this case that it is social services that have let this FAMILY down.

The mother clearly wasn't fit to be looking after those children, why the fuck was she allowed to live like that? I am not sticking up for her, but she was clearly extremely unwell and possibly not that bright? With the appropriate intervention, this could have had a very different ending.

He had no medical history? Was there a birth certificate? Was he born in hospital? Genuine question?

So, just by skim reading this thread i have read that he tried to alert social services - it would seem they turned their back on them :(

Totally agree with Bogeyface.

I see him as culpable as the mother.

How can you not blame the mother? She has not been found to be mentally unfit to stand trial. She has been found guilty in a court of law and has been sentenced to 15 years.

She may have been 'troubled' this does not mean she gets away with manslaughter and abuse.

Bullshit. Everyone around that twisted family knew it was fucked up and nobody stepped up and took responsibility.

So Hamzah never saw a doctor in his tragic short life? I'd bet everything I have the skank was pissed during each and every encounter with police/HCP in the previous 20 years.

I've got lots of real-life friends on mn. If I seriously suspected any of them were abusing their children, I'd take the children physically from them and deal with any consequences.

There are lots of people responsible for Hamzah's death - but as shown on this thread, few are willing to point a finger and say "you should've done something". In fact now there are those saying "bless, she was mentally ill, she couldn't 'elp it" and "it's cultural in bradford 'innit". WTAF? Time we started butting in and calling people out when they're cunts.

You are also ignoring that she threatened to kill other siblings if the eldest told anyone. that would be another indication of abuse to me.

Did you actually read my op after the but that was criticizing (god forbid!) a man?

I never made any indication that I didn't think she was abusing the kid's, OF COURSE she was. The issue was whether the father was also responsible for Hamzah's lack of nourishment.

Hamzah was never given any immunisations and never saw a GP.' BBC NEWS"
That would be the mother then?

No, because the father had a duty of care towards him too before contact stopped.

There's obviously loads we don't know about this whole sad case.
If Hamzah was a twin & AH was already addicted to alcohol when they were born should that not have raised concerns then?
I cannot get my head around the other school age children surviving in a house like that without someone noticing the state of them.
I too grew up in Bradford, am the same age as AH & had DS2 around the same age as Hamzah was born. I am struggling hugely with the whole thing. There may be other factors contributing to what happened, but ultimately she is to blame. She made the choices.

er bit, not but

yabu. This was down to the Mother. The father asked/begged for help and was ignored.

The fact that the father beat the mother doesn't mean he is absolved of all responsibility for what happened to the children. In fact I think that makes him even more culpable.

even more culpable than who ? he was not allowed near his children who knows what went on when he was there

Interesting that the dad wasn't prosecuted for negligence for the years he did live with the family. Indeed strange that a case of negligence hasn't been made for the years of neglect suffered by the other (and older) children. I wonder if he has been left out because the prevailing attitudes (in society) is that bringing up children; e.g. ensuring they are fed, given immunisation, clothed and so on, is the responsibility of the mother? Might be taking things to far to wonder this but I can't help but wonder.

At any rate, I fully agree with the Random that the dad is as culpable for not ensuring that Hamzah was looked after properly whilst he lived there. He must have known that a 3 year old should be larger (the 7 other children presumably were bigger than 6-9 months at age 3). Feck, sizing of clothes should have been a clue! I would like to see charges brought for the other children's neglect against both parents as well as dad's neglect of Hamzah when he was living in the house.

I heard the father interviewed yesterday, and my overwhelming reaction was 'it's all about me'.

The police issued a statement saying that he had said he was concerned about the child's welfare in 2008, when he was interviewed re. domestic violence, and said that they passed on the concern to SS. Presume they wouldn't lie about this. There was no other complaint to the Police.

He was saying he couldn't go shouting about it, and being accused of being the bad guy. Excuse me. His son was dying. I wouldn't care what I was being accused of, I'd shout as long and as loud as possible if it had been my son.

I may be wrong here, but I thought the eldest son was 17 now, not in his 20's, in which case you could understand him being controlled by his mother at 15.

What a sorry mess.

Even more culpable than a man who was allowed near his ex because he wasn't violent. Beating up the mother of your children doesn't give you a free get-out to having any responsibility for your children.

Amanda Hutton is responsible for the death of her child. No amount of domestic violence, depression or isolation makes a person do what she did. We know she was manipulative, aggressive and threatening towards her dc.

However the father HAS to shoulder some of the blame. Although he was an absent father and not directly responsible for Hamzah's death, he was negligent as a parent. Had he been involved in his kids' lives, this may have been prevented.

He told the police about his ex's alcoholism and neglect of the kids, I would not call that 'begging' the authorities for help. Begging would be ringing them every day, ringing the SS, ensuring something is done. Ok so he was not allowed near her, but he had some idea of the abuse and neglect, yet he did not try hard enough to have his voice heard.

Of course we do not know the full ins and outs of the case, but we do know he only told the police once (during his arrest) and did not ring the SS despite saying he would. Hardly father of the year. He will have to live with this for the rest of his life, if that is an adequate punishment thats for the authorities to decide, but he should could try and put some of it right by trying to be a better father to his remaining kids.

If he hadn't been a twat and beat his children's mother then he would have been there to keep his children safe.

The kids are both parents' responsibility. He is as much to blame as she is.

I wonder if the reason the case took so long to get to court was because he was investigated but they could prove anything.

If he lived with the child for 3 years and them left him and the other children to their fate then thats even worse.

I cannot get my head around the other school age children surviving in a house like that without someone noticing the state of them.

It is perfectly possible to live in a house with faeces on the floor and appear at school to come from a perfectly normal home.

Another vote for you OP. In all of these cases, where the fuck is the father?

Even more culpable than a man who was allowed near his ex because he wasn't violent. Beating up the mother of your children doesn't give you a free get-out to having any responsibility for your children.

he wasn't allowed near his children she killed that little boy not him she did it she abused her other children she kept people at bay from the house It was HER fault nobody elses she did it, this father maybe a wife abuser and neglectful but he was not allowed anywhere near nobody believed him

Both parents, through their deplorable behaviour, contributed towards their own child's death, and the neglect/abuse of the other siblings. The fact that Hamza's death is directly caused by the mother's failure to provide the very basic care her child deserved, doesn't mean the father gets to side-step culpability here. He had a child who lay dead for 2 years in the same home his other children resided, and he did what? Mentioned the neglect of his ex after being arrested for DV? The only time he mentioned the awful conditions of the home his children lived in, was to try and deflect scrutiny for his own despicable actions. This one mention was nothing to do with being concerned for the welfare of his children at all. It was about saving his own skin in the face of DV charges.

Hamza's mother deserves every day of her sentence, and more, for what she's done. His father should not be free to walk the streets either IMO.

Everything randomaxe said
Violence against a child's mother is widely considered as a massive failure in parenting and should not be seen as a get out of jail free card that then made him powerless to protect them. He had already failed his children and then continued to do so.

And yes if he had pursued access he would have undoubtedly got it as we all know that domestic abuse isn't a bar to contact