to think that Hamzah Kahn's father should be sent down alongside his mother?

[Bogeyface]

Hamzah's father, after his ex was found guilty of starving their 4 year old to death, said that he would "have to live with that for the rest of my life".

Live with what? With the fact that he did fuck all? His son lay dead for 2 years and his father had no clue, yet makes out he is a loving dad. If he was so loving he would have seen his child, seen the state of the house and the state the (his? sorry, I dont know if they were all his) other children were in. But he didnt. The 2 years between little Hamzah's death and his discovery should not have gone unchecked by any good dad, but in this case it did. At the very least, he would have gone to court to gain access, involved CAFCASS, social services, etc. But he did nothing.

Amanda Suttons stepfather says that she wasnt helped by the social services, which clearly she wasnt, but he puts the blame firmly at their feet. What was he doing? Was he offering to help look after the kids? Clean the house? Did he report her for help? No. He did nothing.

Seems to me that a lot of people who this little boy and his siblings should have been able to rely on preferred to look away.

AIBU to think that his father is just as culpable in his death as his mother?

nice my apologies. I read your previous post wrong. Agreed freudian there will be many, many factors in what happened to all the children in that family. But Hamzah was in the care of his mother, it was she who starved him. It was this starvation that led to his death. It is his mother who is responsible for his death. I believe that she has been justly convicted and sentenced. I can see why she wasn't tried for murder but that is what she did. But I can understand that it was safer to charge her with manslaughter to secure a conviction.

I'm not laying blame with Ms Hutton here but...
Her ex DID try and rais his concerns.
He had a non-molestation order and was not allowed to approach her or the children but he made numerous calls to the police and to social services trying to bring attention to the state of his children.
His son is dead and he tried (regardless of what offences he committed in the past) to get help for a situation he wasn't allowed to know much about.

So sad all round.

YABU.

Based on the information, which has been released to the public he had warned SS and police several times about the sinister goings on in that house but they took no notice.

Do i think he could have done more? Yes, i think he should have called every day until someone listened, i would've broken into that house and kidnapped that little boy and taken him to hospital if it would end his suffering.

But does that make him just as culpable as the mother? No, she intentionally caused such awful harm to a defenceless child whilst the father could only speculate on what horrors lay behind that door.

I woulda however be interested to know the mental state of the eldest son because (i assume of course) he was fully aware of what was going on and whilst i have no doubt that he was most likely abusedi do think that he could've done far more than anyone else to save all of those children. Threatening mother or not surely he left the house regularly and could've gone to the police and reported her and begged them to visit?

Obviously this is wildly speculation on the fact that he is of average intelligence, capable of leaving home alone and aware of the full scale of the little boys suffering.

If the mother does not want her kids to see their dad, she can make it v difficult for contact to happen. About a week ago, there was an op on mn asking if it was ok to turn her son against his dad in revenge for cheating on her. She was absolutely convinced that it was the right thing to do, so I think yabu.

That's ok finola. It's a factor - there are so many in this case.

Everyone seemed to suspect something but nothing seemed to be able to be done. It is frightening how someone cannjust slip beneath the radar.

I have known two people who have had colleagues who have committed suicide and only been found after a while when work has raised the alarm after they hadn't turned up for a while (2 weeks in one case). These were single people, living away from family and alone. But something so wrong in a family?

Yabu, she starved her son to deAth,while he was in her sole care. Don't understand some people's inability to believe mothers can do evil things to their children. Re the adult son, didn't she threaten to kill the other kids if he reported .j

I think there were several relatives who gave evidence against her. I don't know how they can live with themselves. The father did raise the alarm, no one listened.
When you read the threads on here"should I tell SS" remember that poor little mite. Fwiw a close friend of mine reported her sister to ss persistently until they stepped in and helped. She was estranged from her sister and was accused of spite but the kids did get the help they needed (schooling with extended hours, 3 meals a day, cutlery, beds and bedding,clothes and shoes) and they stayed with their parents. My friend and her sister will probably never speak again but she does not regret it for a minute.

The eldest son has pleaded guilty to preventing the burial of a body. He's being sentenced this week. I agree with the poster about wondering about his mental state, being brought up in that environment.

He was not a good dad by any stretch of the imagination. In fact he was a non dad. But this also means that he wasn't involved in the abuse and subsequent death of the little boy.
He will hang his head in shame and regret as a coward and a absent father but I don't believe he is a criminal.

He is a feckless arse.

Father eight kids and not be able to look after them? Leave them with an alcoholic mum after beating her?

Have a family by all means. Have ten or even twenty kids if you want, but not because you are a feckless arse and assume that 'somebody else' will raise them for you.

YANBU - he complained to the police once in 2008 whilst he was under caution for domestic violence towards mother and son. No other allegations were made since this date by him. The police had seen the children 4 days before and had no concerns at this time. They recommended he speak to social services if he had any concerns - he NEVER contacted social services.

He is a disgrace & I think him trying to pin the blame on police/ SS is abhorrent - he just didn't care enough about his children.

by all accounts she isolated herself and didnt let anybody in that was the problem, I feel sorry for the dad as he did try and get help for his child but nobody seemed to believe him,

Thank you gertrudetrain for bringing up the cultural aspects of this case. I spent my teenage years on the other side of the pennines and there are similar attitudes.

When it comes to an asian man and a white woman (and it doesn't mater how many generations your family have lived in the UK and what religion you are you are still 'asian') certain assumptions are made, and they are made by both families.

Unfortunately these assumptions are also made by the police and SS. An accusation of a white woman being an alcoholic by an asian man translates in many people's heads as, "she has the occasional drink".

Unless you have lived in these places you cannot appreciate how deep the assumptions run through the communities. If I am discussing this with friends they struggle to believe it and I think, "is it really that bad?" but it is.

Here's an example.

When my grandmother was becoming frail the family started to look for a cleaner. Someone approached my mother at church saying her daughter was looking for cleaning work.

She then added "But she is half Pakistani, is that OK?"

Yes you read that right, a woman asking if her daughter was acceptable as a cleaner because of her skin colour.

Obviously I was not there, I do not know the details (other than has been in the press) I think the fact there is 2 years between finding the child and the court case points to it being a complex case.

On a last note Jodie Dunsmore, who was, at the time, a PCSO (and only on her second day when she took the complaint) is the kind of police officer we need more of. She answered a complaint about rubbish in a garden and returned several times to make contact with Hutton because she knew something was wrong.

Re the adult son, didn't she threaten to kill the other kids if he reported .j

yes so he said a person who is abusing their children over a long period of time have a hold over them I dont think it is as easy as saying well they should have gone to the police, SKy news reporter was running after him shouting stuff at him it was horrible

Let's put the facts together.

Hamzah died when he was 4 years old, wearing a 6-9 month old baby grow. The parents separated 1 year earlier when Hamzah was 3. Presumably he hadn't shrunk in that time, so a 6-9 month old baby-grow would have fitted him when he was 3. At that time the father was living at the home and had a duty of care towards him. The mother AND the father underfed him for at least 2.25-2.5 years, the mother alone starved him for a further 1 year.

So, yes, he should definitely be in prison too.

The father only told the police his 'concerns' AFTER the split. It would be reasonable to assume that he only did so to revenge the mother for pressing charges regarding the domestic violence, not because he cared about Hamzah's health and wellbeing - if he gave a shit the bastard would have fed him for the previous 2 years wouldn't he? Maybe he realized this and that's why he didn't follow it up with the ss. Who knows.

I don't think the mental health references are helpful. She was 'present' enough in mind to trick and cheat all of the public services she encountered - she wasn't 'mad'. I think people should be careful not to think that all people with mental health disorders are banging their head against a white wall somewhere with no control over their actions. The woman knew what she was doing.

The mother is to blame. Her only!

She starved her son and then left his dead body in the house for 2 years. No body else.

Yes its a sad story and yes people dont understand how a mother could do this and want to blame the father too but it was all her.

She threatened her son to keep him quiet. She knew what she was doing and made her children go along with it.

Its the children and poor Hamzah I feel sorry for. Imagine living in a house with the body of your brother for 2 years while your mum neglected you and was constantly pissed.

The father wasn't allowed near them and he raised his concerns. I dont think for one minute he deserves a prison sentence

Do you think he'd been taking care of Hamzah before they split SP's?

randomAXEofkindness

Your bias is showing.

What bias?

Oooh, it's a mystery!

your dedicated belief that the father has done wrong.

Your opinions are all based on assumptions none of which there is any evidence for.

There is evidence that Hamzah fitted a 6-9 month old baby baby grow and his dad lived with them until he was 3 years old.

Was his dad keeping him well fed Boney?

randomAXEofkindness
"Was his dad keeping him well fed"

How do you know that he wasn't?
Do you know everything about the child's medical history?
Do you really know if the father was an abuser?

Are you fitting the lack of information about this case in to a scenario that fits what you want to believe?

How do you know that he wasn't?

For the reason above. You seem to be having trouble understanding a very simple argument. Are you showing your bias Bony?

Do you know everything about the child's medical history?

He didn't have a medical history.

'Throughout Hamzah's life, Hutton had tried to avoid health professionals having any access to him. She refused entry to health visitors who called at the home, Hamzah was never given any immunisations and never saw a GP.' BBC NEWS