To refer to a black man as a black man

[ShakeRattleNRoll]

The other day i was talking about this black man who lives down the road to a neighbour and she said it was politically incorrect of me to say 'you know that black man who lives there' after I had said it.I thought well i never.What's wrong with calling him a black man when he is a black man? How should have I described him? TYIA

This is like beating my head against a wall. If everyone knows Sue and Gary then not a problem. The issue here is if you don't know who some one is talking about as per the original post. I suspect we have been talking about the same thing but from a different angle.

In my 1st post on this thread I was just trying to highlight a situation. I also pointed out that with this many posts that a lot of points have been made and remade. Not sure why you have taken such a dislike to me/my posts though

The thing with my situation was even though I knew the person who I was talking to knew Sue and Gary she didn't recognise who I was talking about after I'd mentioned other identifying features, then thought of saying she was black but thought I shouldn't but then afterwards pondered on why I felt I shouldn't. I decided it was silly to not mention it where helpful in identifying someone.

Absolutely. If the person didn't recognise Sue and Gary by their names, then saying they were black is a useful identifier, and there is no problem with using it.

I do think that people have been saying this all thread though.

I am not saying racism doesn't exist but I think seeing racism where there isn't any is damaging children - kids grow up expecting to experience racism, thinking if anyone is negative towards them it is solely because of the colour of their skin, not thinking they have any kind of fair chance in life ...not seeing anything positive in the colour of their skin

What a simplistic view.

Are people seeing something that isn't there, or is that just how you see it?

Do you think if people didn't expect racism it wouldn't 'happen'?

More victim blaming there.

I have known other white Mums of black children/mixed race who had initially taken the attitude of 'be positive' 'colour doesn't matter' and thinking that that would 'save' their children from racism, that if they thought it would all be ok then it would...big shock when they found out the reality, that whatever your 'attitude' was, your children could still be treated badly because of their race.

I do think that some people see racism when it isn't there...
I can think of lots and lots of examples ...
eg - on a tv program - a black woman talking about everyday racism saying the local newsagent (Asian) wouldn't touch her hand when he was giving her her change...which could of course be racism...but just as equally it could be he was a Muslim and as such thought he shouldn't touch a woman -or he avoided touching anybody he served because of germs...(would be easy to do an experiment to see if they treated a white woman differently)
Years ago reported on Choice FM (black radio for London) - when changes in Legal Aid were introduced ...this was described by the 'black community' as a 'racist move'...because obviously all black people are poor and couldn't afford their own legal bills, and they would need legal aid...for racism and other innocent matters of course - but also surely because they are all criminals ...what a silly thing to say!
I've experienced it myself - another black guy I used to work with (not the one with the beautiful skin) - fancied he was a real 'ladies man' - had a girlfriend but slept around ...used to say how stupid she was etc -I had told him I thought he was an arse - I wouldn't approve of that behaviour no matter what colour his skin (not saying this is a reflection on his race...) - he got an STD - stupidly told lots of people worried about how he was going to tell his girlfriend - turns out she had given it to him - been doing the dirty on him for years ...I thought that was absolutely hilarious. I admit I wasn't very diplomatic - told him he deserved it etc - he was really upset and angry with me ...and told me I didn't like him because he was black WTF? - nothing to do with you being a lying cheating arsehole upset because you got your comeuppance then? - really not your fault at all?
I don't know if you know I do or not from what you have written but my children are mixed race (their DF is arabic) -so far they are proud of their skin colour ...don't burn easily in the sun, never look white and pasty - will never need fake bake...so far they are proud of their skin colour - and so they should be...
Now if they experience racism - it will be real racism because they won't be looking for it - and hopefully they will have the self confidence to realise that if someone treats them differently because of the colour of their skin they aren't worth knowing/caring about - and if they don't get offered a job etc for the same reason it will be the employers loss not theirs...
DP did experience racism growing up in the south of France - they know some of the stories ...they also know that despite that DP has done well for himself, is happy etc etc
I have had this opinion for a long time - it really makes me despair - but a year or so ago my DP mention seeing a black (or mixed race?) ex-school teacher saying more or less the same as me...

I didn't know your children were mixed race no.

Now if they experience racism - it will be real racism because they won't be looking for it

If you keep your dismissive attitude of peoples experiences of racism, they will probably just internalise any racism they suffer, as what you are saying sounds like you think if/when it happens it is the fault of the victim.

No I don't think racism is the fault of the victim - I do know racism exists...and I have heard it from both sides ...
Hopefully my children will have a good attitude to racists ...the same attitude I have for anyone who judges on appearance... it is a silly thing to do - not to let them win...and to take some stuff with a pinch of salt...(did that really do me any harm?)

What I am trying to say is if you constantly tell someone who is growing up to expect to be always treated differently/badly because of the colour of their skin it limits their expectations of life...they will never be 'successful' because they can't be because of their skin colour which they can't change - and it means they are looking for racism even where it doesn't exist - and there is enough of the real stuff not to be doing that...

I know it is different but almost 20 yrs ago I started working as a chef - I came across some incredibly sexist attitudes , was openly discriminated against and I had to work 10x harder to prove myself ..and sometimes I was never even given the opportunity - I was quite successful - and at the same time other women were too - I'm not a chef anymore but definitely in the 10 yrs or so I was attitudes were improving...far from perfect but better ...I really hope the trend has continued...
I would not let the sexist pigs win ...and would not become their victim...
I think that is attitude you need to have with racists too ...they are wrong, they are becoming the minority...they will be the minority...they will not win.

I'm not saying it is fair - it so isn't - but you have the life you are born with - you can't change that- or the world overnight - all you can do is make the best of it for yourself...

You are saying that being offended by/affected by racism is a choice though?

That if you choose not to be affected by it then you won't be.

You do know that racism is about much more than taking offence at unkind words don't you?

It can have actual consequences. Physical ones.

I stand by my statement that you have a very simplistic view on it.

I know it seems simplistic - and nothing is ever that simple - but every time you get upset by it they get what they want ...you are not a victim ...you are in control and you do have choices ...you are doing nothing wrong...
Otherwise - what is the alternative?
I think it is a mindset...one I am trying to promote in my DCs and how I coped with sexism...
Exactly what physical consequences?
If you are talking about being assaulted because of the colour of your skin -what can you do about it ? The perpetrator (s) if caught will hopefully be prosecuted - the law is very much on your side. You could be assaulted for all kinds of reasons ... you could be like that 16 yo on the bus...not racially motivated (as far as I am aware)... completely random...
If you are talking about not getting a job/study place etc etc - do you really want to work/study for/with racists? It wasn't the job for you ...and they are missing out by being so blind as to judge on appearance rather than talent - in this day and age they are going to be left by the wayside soon...and will regret their decision in the future...

Unkind words are on the whole the pinch of salt stuff ...it may offend you - but only as much as you let it ...they are wrong not you ...do you really care what that kind of person thinks about you? And if a decent person heard what was said they wouldn't think less of you - but would think less of the person who said it...
(Have to add here - I am v. proud of my DD1 - I found this out via another child from another parent - on the school bus there is some nastiness (not to do with her skin colour) - a girl called my DD XXXX and said she hated her - my DDs response - 'Yeah - I know - and?' - stopped the bully in her tracks ...the best way of dealing with it IMO - when I asked DD about it her attitude was it was nothing special 'she's always like that - with lots of people -trying to pick a fight - it's boring really )

I always remember skirting round the issue of identifying someone who wore a wig, by their wig.
The guy who I had a conversation with was a Roman Catholic priest. He said "You mean the one with a wig, she wears a wig."
He looked me straight in the eye and it stayed with me because essentially I knew the message he was trying to get across.
Where there is no issue, don't make one. Don't skirt round things when you don't need to.
That's how I feel about skin colour - it's just a description. How you feel about that really depends on your experiences.
I have mixed race children and have experienced rascism from a mixed couple perspective. It's very unsettling but it doesn't change the fact that for me I wish people would just say it like it is.

YANBU. If being black is his distinguishing feature then it's not in the slightest bit racist.

Fwiw, I live in a v multicultural block of flats. I am white. There is one other white guy. I call him "the white guy" because that's what he is.

And I am quite offended by "person of colour". Do white people not have colour then?

When I was at school, I was often referred to as "The White Kid." It didn't bother me because it was true. I was the only white child in my class. They couldn't have said the girl with the brown hair or the brown eyes or even my first name without mentioning my colour because all of the other descriptors would not have identified me alone.

I think people are overly sensitive on someone else's behalf sometimes! I wouldn't go asking him though......

My ds goes to a school that is quite mixed, but the majority are white, asian and oriental heritages. There is one boy in his class who is black. Ds referred to him as 'the boy with the really dark skin' (I know his name now but when I didn't...)

He equally refers to his best mate as 'the boy with the really pale skin'.

They are distinguishing features, like hair colour. I like that he's found his own description with no contentious words.

In a supermarket in Jersey City NYC. i ask assistant where a kind of flour is. She gets on tannoy. " can x bring a bag of x flour to the white lady in aisle 3 ". ... Was I offended ? Did she mention what I was wearing ? No to either.

"I always remember skirting round the issue of identifying someone who wore a wig, by their wig.
The guy who I had a conversation with was a Roman Catholic priest. He said "You mean the one with a wig, she wears a wig."

Actually, that's completely different. I can imagine somebody being mortified to realise that everyone knew she was wearing a wig. I think that is an identifier you should bend over backwards to avoid using.

I worked with a lady who had a prosthetic arm. I remember a supplier trying to say who he'd delivered a piece of kit to by describing her without mentoning her arm. He didn't know her name/job title and we were trying to figure out who'd signed for it.

Lady, second floor, grey suit, long brown hair, pretty, english accent... erm...

no wonder Political Correctness has become such a tortuous joke, and creepy finger-pointing to boot. it reminds me of the curtain twitchers of old. all the wasted time and energy that goes on this stuff is unbelievable.

Zower- could you give some examples?

unlucky83

but every time you get upset by it they get what they want ...you are not a victim ...you are in control and you do have choices ...

So..when racism happens, what should we do? Not get upset? Hide our feelings lest we be deemed too sensitive (for who?) Put on a cheery smile in the face of bigotry?

What choices? Go home & change the colour of our skin? Smile eternally and never ever mention racism, just in case we're accused of feeling it too deeply aka playing the victim?

My sis in law is white. At 6 years old her son came in from playing and asked his mum 'whats a n**a? She sent him to us so we could talk him through some things. She felt she couldnt deal with it and was also very, very upset. Transpired he'd kicked a ball with friends (white) a bit too near a car and a woman had called him that. Do you think I should have said 'just paint on a cheery smile as you go on your way, & nothing will ever affect you'

When Anton Ferdinand - a man of mixed heritage - was called an effing black c* despite having a white mother; do you think he should have smiled and let it slide off his back? Should his brother Rio have done the same, and not tried to stick up for his brother?

Are you not aware of racism/racist attacks? Do you think the verbal and physical attacks are due to black people getting upset and this somehow goading people into attacking? If we smiled there'd be less of it, perhaps?

I mean..exactly how much smiling do you want us to do, hmmm? Damned if we do....damned if we dont.

This thread was about whether to call a black man, a black man. It descended (re. some posters) into the usual - black people being TOLD how they should think, feel and react, by people who dont have the same life experiences yet feel qualified. Empathising with racism is 1 thing - patronising whilst being aware of a non-equal system is absurd.

I wouldnt be arrogant enough to tell a man in a wheelchair for example how he should feel, for example, when Im not in a wheelchair living life with a disability; so, as much as I may think I know - I dont, do I?

Mistress I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying ...I am not saying never mention racism ...I'm never said you have to smile...

I said it was how I dealt with sexism and how I trying to teach my children to deal with any racism they may (are likely to?) experience...a mental defence...try and use the anger you feel in a positive way for your own good...

I am not trying to be patronising - I am trying to do the best I can for my children - to quote what I said earlier
I'm not saying it is fair - it so isn't - but you have the life you are born with - you can't change that- or the world overnight - all you can do is make the best of it for yourself...

Your 6 yo nephew ... was he upset? You say his mother was upset
Was he upset after you 'had talked him through some things'?
What do you think about the woman who said that ? What do you think I think about her? What do the majority of people in this country think about her?

Am I allowed to say what I would have told my 6 yo DC in a similar situation? -
What she said is a horrible bad word. (maybe throw some history in) Most people in this country would not use that word. Most people who heard her use that word would be shocked and think she was a really really bad person. She used it purely because of your skin colour - she was trying to be mean to you because you have a different colour skin to her. Now wasn't that a really stupid silly thing for her to do?

Would that have been the wrong way of handling it? And if so - Why?

You tell me - what IS the solution? Today?
Can you make racism disappear now - forever?
I don't think you can ...it may never be completely gone ...
But then you can't change the colour of your skin - or that of your children...so what about your children?
What are you going to teach them that will make them able to deal with racism they are going to experience?

What do you think I should tell my children?

Really tired of white people popping up and shouting that they don't care if they're referred to as white. Of course you don't, your race hasn't been the basis for your fucking oppression.

And amazing, really, isn't it, that people who have never suffered it are so sure what racism is and what it isn't.

Anyway I wanted to chime in and say a couple of things.

Gangsters you seem to be long gone but you need to check your privilege and listen to the people who are taking time to articulate their experiences and educate you.

Sporks your posts were phenomenal. Amber I have so much respect for you sticking with this. You are right.

unlucky, You tell me - what IS the solution? Today? Can you make racism disappear now - forever?
There needs to be a major shift in the power structures of the world. Actually, they need to be dismantled. Me, I think race (and gender) is bound up with class. Women and people of colour So the overthrow of capitalism is the solution. Not joking. HTH.

As for the Op's mention of him being hung - yeah. Tbh I read that and thought the whole thing was a wind up. Still not sure it isn't but the thread is interesting and somewhat depressing nonetheless.

Gah DD whacking keyboard. Women and people of colour constitute most of the global underclass.

I'm black. Nothing wrong with using black as a description. Only in Britain do people think that not mentioning somebody's race in a non biased way means "racism". I'd immediately think that a so called "well meaning" white person, quick to jump down another person's throat with "RACIST" at the mention of the word "black" in the context mentioned was racist him/herself.
I've been in this game for forty three years. From overt racist times (the 70's) to these even more racist times(for me, at least) where mention of the word "black" is apparently taboo if it doesn't come wrapped up in some "multicultural"/"don't rock the boat by being "that" (angry/afro centric?) kind of Black" malarkey. Don't worry, it's symptomatic of the British ability to wish something away by not mentioning it, or the thought crime thing that comes out when race comes up. Or worse, we Blacks are so hard done by that we have to be hand held at every God damned thing (white man's burden?). The British think (stupidly) that the mere mention of race is racist, but we do that passive aggressive thing about so many things that I have to accept it as a national characteristic. If I lose my natural mind and find you and mug you, feel free to mention that I am "BLACK" to the first police that turn up. Just do not refer to me as a Black (insert any bad word). Now that would make you racist.
Mind you, the thought of white people having a go at one another about the usage of the word "black" to describe a black person in non biased terms leaves me in a state of not knowing whether to laugh or cry to the point of remembering a quote from James Brown (paraphrasing here) "If I can't get my civil rights, I'm gonna get my money and BUY my civil rights"

I wish I had read the WHOLE thread before I made my original comment to the OP. I wouldn't have been so "nice". I just hope that the blood pressure of those trying to school some on here hasn't gone up.
AmberLeaf, MistressDeeCee... I will always read your posts from now on. I would have had to leave the thread for fear of getting a bit "street" in my replies.