To refer to a black man as a black man

[ShakeRattleNRoll]

The other day i was talking about this black man who lives down the road to a neighbour and she said it was politically incorrect of me to say 'you know that black man who lives there' after I had said it.I thought well i never.What's wrong with calling him a black man when he is a black man? How should have I described him? TYIA

Opalite My point isnt that other mixed race (or black) people shouldnt be offended but that it is not the place of a white middle class woman as it was when he posted on MN) to tell a black (or mixed race) person what is or isnt deemed offensive on their behalf. It is incredibly patronising.

Yeah I remember that Bogeyface, it was me.

I am not white middle class, I am a white working class woman who has grown up in a mixed race family. Due to the make up of my family and my own racially ambiguous appearance [I have hair that is typical in mixed race people] it was assumed on several occasions that I too was mixed race in some form. I also have mixed race/black children.

So I wasn't and aren't coming at this from the view point of a 'white middle class desperately trying to be PC' woman.

Race/racial identity and prejudice had been a factor throughout my life.

If I remember correctly, I said on that thread that it is up to your DH how he chooses to identify himself, but that the term 'half cast' is offensive to many people. Giving an example of one person thinking it is ok, does not mean it is generally, it also adds weight to the arguments of dinosaurs who think they should have the right to keep using out dated and offensive terms.

It wasnt you Amber, I remember that thread too, I posted on his behalf. The one I am referring to he posted under his own username (and said pretty much the same thing), it was yet another thread along the same lines as this, and the one you are thinking of.
She was a white woman with no black or mixed raced connections at all.

We both think that being told by others (who are not black or mixed race, which you are not) what they should be offended by is as offensive as any terms you have an issue with.

Actually, those arent the words he just used but I am 100% sure you would be offended by them so I paraphrased!

As I said, it is up to your DH how he chooses to identify, but I think he is taking offence at the wrong group of people personally.

I agree that no one should tell him how he should identify as that is his choice, but I know black people that would say exactly the same as what you say that white woman said and probably in much harsher terms.

I do struggle to understand people that perpetuate such perjorative terms.

Did I say he laughed in their faces? No. I said that they find it amusing when the PC brigade think up yet another "non-offensive" phrase that is essentially meaningless.

Dual Heritage? Yep, that would be every person in the world whose parents are not brother and sister. Meaningless.

Your OH has his own reasons to find things offensive, or not, as does my H. That is down to their own experience and reasoning. What is not ok is someone with no experience at all of the horrific racism that can happen, telling others who do have experience of it what they should or shouldnt be offended by. Offence is a personal thing, no one has the right to dictate to others about it unless they have direct experience of what they are talking about which 90% of the PC brigade dont.

I do struggle to understand people that perpetuate such perjorative terms

You misunderstand. He doesnt perpetuate it, he simply isnt offended by it, there is a very big difference between the two.

I should add that a couple of years ago he got court awarded compensation (which was a surprise!) because someone at work verbally abused him based purely on his colour. The words the man used would all have passed muster with the PC rules, but because they were said in a threatening and intimidating way mean that the man was found guilty. He doesnt shrug these things off, not at all. Just chooses to not let someone who uses a certain phrase, but means no offense, get to him.

You misunderstand. He doesnt perpetuate it

I don't think I have misunderstood, you said he refers to himself as half cast. that is perpetuating it.

Amber leaf, hats off to you on this thread. You're right, and it is all rather frustrating and depressing.

Discussing this with H as I am posting.

He says that his generation (he is quite a bit older than me) were used to phrases like that, and it became the norm to him and his black peers. Not offensive because the people saying it werent trying to offend. So he has no issue with it.

Also, he says that thanks to some of the vile and vicious racism he (and to a much lesser extent, we) have experienced, he knows the difference between someone deliberately attempting to wound and someone who means wells but uses the wrong word.

He cant actually remember the last time he used the phrase outside our house, when talking about these threads!

Thank you TheOriginalSteamingNit

My H just gets fed up with being told he is using language that is racist and offensive to black/mixed raced people when he and our daughter are just that!

Bang on KepekCrumbs

My Dp thinks Amberleaf is right.

So when talking too or about someone who is not of ones own ethnicity. One needs to guess which terms all others involved may find offensive and not just people involved. Anyone who may overhear when you talk could also be offended too.

Kepek, I totally understand what you are saying which is why I posted earlier saying I thought the problems on this thread were arising because of the very different starting points and life experiences of various posters.

A white Surrey girl like myself who believes she has been brought up 'colourblind' and finds the idea of racism abhorrent sees nothing whatsoever wrong with describing someone as black if that's the best way of distinguishing them. I quite understand that other people due to their past experiences may find it distasteful.

However, when all is said and done, I'm an optimist who likes to think the best of people so I would assume in the circumstances of the OP, that the use was perfectly reasonable. Whereas, if someone said, 'and then this black guy got on the bus wearing a clown's outfit' I would automatically wonder why you would need to mention his colour at all considering he is likely the only guy on the bus dressed as a clown and his colour has no relevance to to the story.

Though now that I think about it and in the interest of honesty, I'm not sure I would always pick up on the the subtlety of the scenario I just mentioned. Academically, on paper, it is very clear to me that the clown story would be unacceptable and that the teller was (hopefully unintentionally) making a racial slur. I'm quite certain I wouldn't say it myself but Would I automatically pick up on it if I heard it? I'm not actually sure.

Words change meaning, I've lived in London for 25 years and my ds was often referred to in the playground mums as the blond one as there were 2 white kids in his class. We have friends of all 'colours' but Ive never used that term. My black friends are happy with black as I'm happy with white. I used to tell my art class that Matisse called black 'the queen of colours', many artists would tell you that white is an absence or not a colour.
I remember political correctness going crazy when a Haringey nursery(I think) banned the poem Baa Baa BLACK sheep. Not understanding that the poem made references to differences in cost of black wool as opposed to white due to dying costs! People are overly sensitive but there is a whole load of abuse in history to be sensitive over. In that regard I think the OP was being totally fine as she is referring to a friend in a positive context, and she is considering her actions to shape her next reference.
There was a brilliant poet on radio 4 yesterday who wrote a poem called 'Nigger'. He interviewed various rap artists and prominent black people who had 'reclaimed the word'. He was black and said it made him uncomfortable as it was the last word Stephen Lawrence heard before he died. But others argued for reclaiming it. Of course no one interview was happy about white people using it. This wasn't the n word - Black and proud - the word surely has been reclaimed as positive by now. It just depends on the context and adjectives accompanying it. I remember Germaine Greer talking about reclaiming the word cunt. Perhaps with me that is generational as I cant get comfy with cunt. Although I know many younger posters on here use it.

Many moons ago I had a girlfriend who was Indian by origin. A friend of mine from home was visiting me (we were students) and was trying to identify another girl in our circle of friends, and got really tied up. He had 3 girls to choose from - a white girl, Indian, or Chinese.

The problem was that he didn't feel that he could distinguish them in this way. My girlfriend and I looked askance at each other and asked him whether he meant the Indian girl. She couldn't understand why he would feel uncomfortable describing her in that way. I had to agree.

Oh yes thank you MrsDeVere black cab drivers

It also reminds me of an interesting science program on a while back about how we perceive colour. The scientists studied a race of people (sorry memory not allowing this one through) who didn't have a word for GREEN in their culture and they really couldn't distinguish it when show different paint samples , various blues, turquoise and greens they called them all blues. The human urge to catagorise is taught and conditioned in our culture.

Ultimately if the man is black then calling him a black man is a statement of fact. No? Actually I worked alongside a lot of BME people at one point in my life. When describing other people in the organisation or their families they often referred to them as she's darker than me, lighter than me; she's my dad's colour, etc.. They also referred to people as very black - people from Africa are darker than us because they tend not to have as much mixed blood. And actually they didn't hesitate to refer to some of the white staff and students as White Trailer Trash - sometimes one had to agree.

I learnt loads; I hadn't appreciated black people got sun tans and strap marks, I hadn't appreciated black people tended to have dry skin and hair, I didn't know they didn't tend to get nits , I didn't realise that Afro Caribbean people were all originally from Africa , I didn't know about sickle cell disease or lupus, I didn't know that when they were children their mums and dads were a bit scared of ketchup and funny British food.

But I'm glad I know all that now.