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Original poster

Why do you think behaviour in schools is so much worse than even 10 yrs ago.

589 replies

soul2000 · 03/10/2013 18:22

This is not a joke thread. I am generally interested as to how much the standard of behaviour has deteriated in the last 25 years since i left school.

What amazes me, is that teachers are not shocked when watching programes like educating yorkshire, that just shows how bad the behaviour of some pupils is.

Another shocking thing is that pupils who in my time would have been labeled a menace "ME INCLUDED" are now seen as upstanding pupils.

How has the standard fallen so far and what can be done to re address the balance.

This thread is in support of teachers.

OP posts:
StarlightMcKenzie · 03/10/2013 21:37

'Why should any teacher have to deal with poor behaviour in a non-specialist class is beyond me.'

How about why should any teacher not be trained adequately and ensure statements of SEN are fulfilled as specified? THAT is beyond me.

Trigglesx · 03/10/2013 21:38

I think inclusion is great BUT everyone has to follow basic rules of behaviour. If you can't behave you need specialist help and shouldn't be in a general class. From my perspective this benefits the teacher, the child with special needs and the other children in the class.

Thankfully, your perspective is not what decides their statements. There is a valid place in MS for children with SNs with appropriate support.

Lack of any sanctions for teachers to take against disruptive pupils, "inclusion" policies and parents who come storming up to school defending their offspring, regardless of what they have done.

You think inclusion policies are bad? Specifically why then? Children with disabilities have the same right to a MS education as NT children.

www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child

JamieandtheMagicTorch · 03/10/2013 21:40

I'd like to clarify that the disruption I hear about is not from (as far as I can make out) children with SNs

StarlightMcKenzie · 03/10/2013 21:42

Jamie, many children with the types of SN that can cause disruption if unsupported, ARE unsupported because people don't believe the diagnosies iyswim, which tends to lead to behaviour that people can find unacceptable.

AnaisHendricks · 03/10/2013 21:42

My DD spent years seven and eight with the immoral, the dysfunctional and the violent. I know this because I knew the parents and lived amongst them on a sink estate. We had to move house, with all the expenses involved due to the behaviour of these people, and DD moved school.

DD's previous school would be practically empty if these pupils were made to leave, but I have so much compassion for them. Even the ones who knocked on our window every night and sent my son into meltdown. They are squandering the only chance they will ever have and are so very damaged.

Want2bSupermum · 03/10/2013 21:43

Star There is a big difference between learning and behaviour issues. As a child I was in a class with two children with behavioural issues. One had ADD and the other was just violent (once they hit, kicked and spat at our teacher 'because he was angry'). The teacher spent most of the day dealing with those two children while the rest of us were left to fend for ourselves. We were a class of 20 so no teaching assistant was deemed necessary.

I resent the fact that my teacher was never able to spend enough time with me to identify the problems I was having. I was dyslexic but this wasn't identified. The teacher told my parents that he knew something wasn't quite right but he hadn't been able to spend enough time with me to pinpoint what the problem was. My behaviour in class was never a problem so I think an inclusive approach would be appropriate. I found this to be the case with most dyslexics I was at school with.

PaulSmenis · 03/10/2013 21:43

I haven't watched Educating Yorkshire, so I'll definitely have to see it now. I remember shocking things from my school days. If anything they seem much tighter on truancy and behaviour in general, but maybe my son is just at a naice village secondary.

In my day you could happily bugger off and do what you wanted as long as you turned up to registration. I remember fights, someone spraying a smelly teacher with deodorant and loads of stuff. I was actually at one of the better schools in the area.

If standards really have slipped we're up shit creek.

StarlightMcKenzie · 03/10/2013 21:44

'We were a class of 20 so no teaching assistant was deemed necessary.'

Then THAT was a failure of the teacher and school, not the children.

StarlightMcKenzie · 03/10/2013 21:46

'I was dyslexic but this wasn't identified.'

It rarely is in most state schools regardless of the behaviour of the children. Dyslexia isn't screened for and hardly ever given specialist support.

soverylucky · 03/10/2013 21:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lindyhopper29 · 03/10/2013 21:46

I'm not talking about inclusion for children with special needs but ones with behaviour problems.

When I go into my local doctors' surgery there is a poster saying Please treat our staff with respect - any violence against our staff will not be tolerated. Why should this not apply to school staff?

Trigglesx · 03/10/2013 21:47

There is a big difference between learning and behaviour issues. As a child I was in a class with two children with behavioural issues. One had ADD and the other was just violent (once they hit, kicked and spat at our teacher 'because he was angry'). The teacher spent most of the day dealing with those two children while the rest of us were left to fend for ourselves. We were a class of 20 so no teaching assistant was deemed necessary.

Then that's the fault of the school, not the children, if they had no support.

And behavioural difficulties can present due to learning difficulties. And BOTH are SNs.

www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child

StarlightMcKenzie · 03/10/2013 21:47

'I'm not talking about inclusion for children with special needs but ones with behaviour problems.'

Many behavioural problems stem from unmet special needs though.

jamdonut · 03/10/2013 21:47

Parental behaviour is quite a problem!

We had a class assembly the other day, to which the parents of the class performing are always invited,then go off for a coffee in the canteen after.

After it had finished, and we'd all applauded and the Head had said her niceties, she asked the parents to head down to the canteen,and said the children would follow down.

We all sat open-mouthed as the father of one the performing children,walked down the hall, in front of the head, and beckoned his younger child to come out of her place and proceeded to give her a big kiss and a cuddle, then went out waving and saying "Bye,Bye" very loudly!!

What was he thinking!?!?! Shock

There seems to be a culture of " I love my kids more than anyone else loves theirs" round our way, and it is very annoying. It is no wonder some children can't bear to be separated from their parents to come in to school!

We all love our children, it's just some of us don't feel the need to be constantly showing and saying it and causing separation anxiety!

Trigglesx · 03/10/2013 21:50

I'm not talking about inclusion for children with special needs but ones with behaviour problems.

Seriously people PLEASE check out the link. Learn the facts.

www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child

Children with SNs very frequently HAVE behavioural problems. And those that you presume are just "naughty" or "badly behaved" could very well have SNs.

Lindyhopper29 · 03/10/2013 21:51

Why? You obviously know more about teaching than I ever will

AnaisHendricks · 03/10/2013 21:52

Regarding the one child who had ADD and the other who was "just violent" do you think there may have been a chance that he was undiagnosed?

DD aged twelve knew that there were undiagnosed pupils at her former school because they were so similar to her brother.

There is still a huge lack of awareness about SN.

Want2bSupermum · 03/10/2013 21:53

This reply has been deleted

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Trigglesx · 03/10/2013 21:54

Lindyhopper because, as Anais states, there is still a huge lack of awareness about SN.

And because there are a lot of posters that don't get it.....

youarewinning · 03/10/2013 21:54

I think inclusion is great BUT everyone has to follow basic rules of behaviour. If you can't behave you need specialist help and shouldn't be in a general class. From my perspective this benefits the teacher, the child with special needs and the other children in the class.

Where are the boundaries of this then? Many children with AN can behave acceptably when the support is in place. Why does specialist help have to be outside the classroom/ school? Surely it's more beneficial to give pupils the tools to cope and coping techniques for when things are hard?

StarlightMcKenzie · 03/10/2013 21:57

'If that child was unable to control themselves with a bottle of paint they should not be in a mainstream class.'

I agree but with the addition of one word 'unsupported'.

However I cannot agree that they should be elsewhere.

echt · 03/10/2013 21:57

I think point here is that inclusion was implemented in many many schools, without the financial backup to make it viable. And yes, I do think it was a cynical move by government to save money in the guise of benefiting the SN students.

The same sleight of hand came into play when the poor levels of literacy in prisoners, and high levels of exclusion when at school became translated into keeping children in school at all costs, because the schools were to blame for the children not attending and thereby not becoming literate. No thought as to any wider consideration of other factors,e.g. gender or class, just keep them, no matter what. And no funding to help students.

A recent paper by N.Ruijs, though focussing on Dutch schools, showed that inclusion has no disbenefits where the funding is adequate.

soverylucky · 03/10/2013 21:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

zzzzz · 03/10/2013 21:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StarlightMcKenzie · 03/10/2013 21:59

'Star I think you are demonstrating exactly why standards have fallen. It is everyone elses fault but the child who is demonstrating poor behaviour.'

Actually standard of behaviour are worse if it is blamed on the child/parent as this is often given as a reason to leave them unsupported, confused and on fight or flight alert.