To think teachers are actually better off than those in the private sector

[coco44]

(Mumsnet Bosses
Please may I rephrase the debate in a more measured way)

My DH is paid £20,000 moe than me but has no more qualifications than me.
His pension is bigger than mine (predicted) and his lump sum is three times more than mine too.
He get BUPA with his job - I don't. I get the NHS like everyone else (granted, I and DS so benefit from this).
He works LESS hours AT work than me and doesn't bring work home - I do.
He gets a 5% pay increase EVERY year - I've had a 1% but my pension payment is increasing so technically I don't get it.
He goes up the pay spine - I don't. (HT always makes sure staff never get it!)
He gets a 25% bonus - I don't get a bonus - ever.

My school holidays are spent catching up with assessments, reading journals and updating knowledge and skills, resource finding and also catching up with sleep and recharging my batteries.

Oh, almost forgot school holidays are spent catching up with my toddler and finding out what is new in his life - probably mummy!

So, I ask you OP the question:
Is the private sector better than the teaching sector?

My answer is "depends on which industry you look at"

Teachers have it better than some private sector jobs, and worse than others. Everyone should be in a union and fight for better terms and conditions.

And of course, there are many teachers who weren't on strike this week, who had their own children at schools which were closed. They were, don't forget, unable to take leave during term-time.

Oh and I haven't read all 400+ posts. I haven't the time I'm afraid. Just stopped for a break in the marking I am currently doing.

As for criticising teachers - go for it! Everyone criticises everyone and everyone's job when their actions and their job interferes with our own lives and stops us from getting on with what we need to/want to.

Doesn't mean that we're right though.

I won't try and stop anyone from having an opinion.

I for one hate it when people 'blame systems' for people slipping through the net with social services, the NHS, banks etc, etc and can give a right mouthful.

Doesn't mean I am right though or that I am in full posession of the facts. Just means that based on the knowledge I hold, I have formed an opinion.

One thing I will say (diverting) - educational standards HAVE improved in some areas of the curriculum but behaviour has deteriorated, stress amongst even our youngest children has increased - all due to the pressures and interference from governments' target driven force.

It's more than just pay and pensions - it's about childrens' rights to maintain their childhood and to enjoy an education (especially Primary) that is creative, free and moulded by them.

But sovery it works the other way, just as many people do not know what teaching is like, many teachers do not know what other jobs are like so we cannot make valid comparisons across jobs.

But Arisbottle no one is on here commenting on other jobs now ... This thread is all about teacher bashing!

Hand cream did I imagine it or did you post that DC go to private school?

I've just seen this thread, haven't read all the posts I confess.

The exam question is:

"Are teachers better off than those in the private sector?"

I'm going to assume here that OP means in terms of renumeration because I don't think anyone would suggest that teachers get it easier workload wise or get less holidays.

So are teacher's better off financially than those in the private sector?

Clearly teachers are not better off financially than every person in the private sector. I doubt teacher's get paid more than say....Roman Abromovich or Wayne Rooney but they get paid more than Joe, the toilet cleaner. So I think all we can reasonably do is look at averages.

So are teachers on average better off financially than those in the private sector?

Well firstly teachers are public sector workers and on average they are better paid by 7-8% (Source: Guardian)

But teachers are such a big group it's really unfair to lump them in with all public sector workers.

According to 'This is Money'. The average secondary teacher earns around £35k with primary teacher's earning £32k. Data was drawn from HMRC data (Source: This is Money)

Now the average salary in the private sector is around £26-27k so on paper yes, teachers are definitely better off than your average private sector worker.

BUT

BUT

Teacher's are highly educated and skilled people. The private sector is a huge mix. Therefore we wouldn't be comparing apples with apples although I grant you that to many people they will consider teachers as very well off if they're earning minimum wage. It's all relative isn't it. If we compared teachers with other degree level graduates the gap would narrow considerably.

But the answer to the exam question is yes they are but the question was overly simplistic.

That data was interesting and your point about comparing apples with apples is a good one.

An aspect of the teacher's average pay is what happens when the pay for an HT, called a teacher, is part of that average. An HT does not do the same work that the public would think of as being a teacher. It would be interesting to see the average pay for a classroom teacher.

The top end for a secondary is 31,552, so I imagine the higher earning SMT/HT has been put in the mix.

I am sure that top end - post threshold is higher than 31,552

Not everyone gets the threshhold, nor is everyone a post holder. The rate for London, bands A and B, also skew the figures. That's why it would be interesting to know what went into the figure of 35K.

I've looked at the gov. website and for main grade they say 31,868 at the top end, with a start at 21,804.

But every teacher can go through threshold even without a responsibility point.

Yes, of course they can, doesn't mean they do, presumably some get knocked back.

I've known people not go through. Ime they didn't prepare for the process properly. But then I always over prepare for things.

Here's a question, are the threshhold payments a one-off for that year, or are they consolidated, i.e. you have them forever?

Haven't read the whole thread but hear hear junkfoodaddict

Same situation but swap husband for sister.

She earns more than i do in the private sector, never takes work home and gets regular pay increases (two this year of 5%... 5%!!!!!) - the last one I had was in 2007, oh apart from the 0.7% last year which got swallowed by my pension contributions.

I have been a language teacher for 18 years and my full time salary, if I worked full time would be £26,968. FE sector so may be more if i worked in a school.

Sis gets an hour lunch break every day. As a teacher working in a college you are lucky if you can get to the toilet, no lunch breaks here.

I love my job and never went into it for the money. Threads that claim we have it better than those in the private sector need to spend a few weeks teaching me thinks.

I've worked in both sectors and in the private sector I earnt double my teaching salary, had a company car, pension, private health scheme etc. I rarely had to worry about work or plan/prepare once I had left the office and holidays were real holidays. I also did not face attack and hostility from customers like I do from parents. But I chose to do something that fulfills and challenges me more. It is 100% more demanding and exhausting than any other job I've done so much so that if I work full time it is totally overwhelming. So I work in school 3 days a week (and at home 1.5 days a week). I'm proud of myself because I make a difference to children. I'm learning not to be bothered by people who criticise and attack me. I hope that all of the haters on here have brilliant teachers for their own children.

I don't think most reasonable people are attacking and hating teachers because they think teachers have an easy peasy job.

But on this occasion I think the majority of public do not support the teacher's strike because the main issue seems to be their pensions. A pension that is incredibly generous when compared to the rest of the UK, will continue to be very generous, is unaffordable by the govt and a pension that the vast majority of us can only dream of.

So your average man in the street who is also working damn hard to make ends meet, hasn't seen a payrise for years and being told his pension is going to be so shit that he's likely to starve isn't feeling very sympathetic towards teachers.

Banging on about how hard teacher's work isn't going to garner much traction since we all think we work hard. No-one goes to work and comes home and thinks "Hey...what a piece of piss".

And it's hard to imagine why teachers should be a special exception case given that other public sector staff like police, firemen, nurses even MP's have all had to stomach significant pension changes.

I think that teachers pensions have already been significantly changed have they not? I was under the impression that in the glory days a teaching pension was indeed fantastic but the terms have changed several times and the most recently qualified teachers certainly have the crappest pensions. Disclaimer: I am not a pensions expert I fact I am not even a pensions amateur!

I have no intention of trailing through all 18 pages, so I will ask for something to be repeated.

Can someone explain to me factually why teachers are striking? IS it mainly the pensions? And if so, what are the changes?

I find it remarkably difficult to locate any solid information about why this is even happening.

Gangster I've asked 3 times for the official Union reasons and got nowhere.

Apparently officially t&c( exact details not listed on here despite asking) but actually this isn't the case it's to save education(again exact details not listed on here).

Info here on why teachers are striking. There are 2 posters summarising the reasons, but in a nutshell:

Conditions - too much paperwork and red tape reducing ability to actually teach
Pay - resistance to move to performance pay due to uncertainty that HTs with increasing budget restraints will be fair and the concern that performance is related to results and that no-one will want to teach the classes that have behaviour issues or lack of ability to improve
Pensions Move from a final salary pension to career average, increase in contributions and extension of retirement age

Whether or not you agree with the changes is moot. These are the t&cs that teachers signed on joining the profession and they have to be consulted before they are changed. Basic employment law.

I've asked 3 times for the official Union reasons and got nowhere

You could have just gone to the union websites. Any newspaper article on it will give you their names; NUT and NASUWT.

More info here