To think teachers are actually better off than those in the private sector

[coco44]

(Mumsnet Bosses
Please may I rephrase the debate in a more measured way)

[Retropear]

The NUT site is extremely vague.

Re pensions no sympathy.

Re performance pay what actually has been mooted?Is performance going to be judged on progress?How does threshold fit in with all this?Think I have a couple of threshold points actually so interested to know.Surely the Unions aren't actually still in favour of pay increase based on the number of years you've been teaching regardless of performance.

Re paperwork - what exactly?

[GangstersLoveToDance]

Agree that the NUT site is vague. I have looked at it and I still can't find the 'actual' reasons for strike.

Lots of general propaganda-type messages of 'let's all stand together' and 'let's improve education/working practices/outlook' - but no actual clear information.

[Retropear]

NAS far better.

Sorry not a lot of sympathy re inspection and accountability either as my dc have benefited from it.

Not a lot of sympathy re pay freezes everybody I know has had them for far longer.

[GangstersLoveToDance]

Plenty of people in my organisation have just been moved from their final salary scheme to a defined contribution scheme. No agreement was needed from them.

I can assure you that my employer would NOT breach employment law. So your 'fact' about T&Cs of employment not being able to change is incorrect. It can and does happen.

[GangstersLoveToDance]

What retropear said.

[chicaguapa]

So you've said what you have no sympathy for, but are there any bits that you do?

Do you genuinely feel that the profession should just shut up and put up? And that schools won't suffer?

Or do you genuinely feel that Gove is 'improving standards' with his reforms?

[chicaguapa]

I can assure you that my employer would NOT breach employment law. So your 'fact' about T&Cs of employment not being able to change is incorrect. It can and does happen

It also happens where T&Cs can't be changed without consultation. FACT. It happened where I work when proposals to close the FS scheme were put forward and the unions threatened to strike. So they kept it open. This is a private sector company.

[Retropear]

7&8 on NAS

10 too(but it takes both sides and I think the unions need a reality check).

I also think free schools,academies(although Union behaviour makes me see why Gove wants to acadamise everything in sight)and some of the new curriculum are bonkers but you say Unions aren't allowed to campaign in any way against them.

[Retropear]

Not happy with education cuts(but unless Unions except reality there will need to be more)or a longer school day/less holidays.All of these would be detrimental for children imvho.

Free schools hack me off as a masseeeeeve waste of money,letting mc parents such as Toby Young play schools in areas they aren't needed whilst children in other areas have no place.

I would have supported any strike that focused on the above(as would many parents) but this didn't.

[chicaguapa]

Maybe some of these things you've listed do come under 'conditions', I'm not sure though.

But I think that they have all contributed to an overall feeling of the profession being under attack and teachers are more likely to want to stand up for any changes in their T&Cs because they mistrust the government's intentions.

That's how I read it anyway.

[Retropear]

Everywhere is under attack because there is a massive deficit to pay back.

[chicaguapa]

But 'free schools' hasn't reduced the deficit, but has reduced the need to be a qualified teacher (in those schools).

Are you saying then that the new pay reforms might not lead to 'rewarding good teachers' after all but are in fact a way of reducing school budgets to help pay off the deficit? So will in effect lead to a pay reduction for teachers?

I actually agree with you over the pensions issue to an extent as that's my field and I see what's happening in the pensions industry as a whole. But I think for anyone to focus on this is a red herring as there are bigger issues they're standing up for too. And they have made some progress on this front anyway and I don't think they'll make any more ground there.

[niceguy2]

As per chic's post, the reasons officially are:

Conditions, pay & pensions.

Let's take conditions first of all. Really? I've heard this for over a decade now. Why strike now? I think most of the public believe this is simply a smokescreen for the other two reasons. I like many suspect if the government moved on the other two reasons that teachers would happily stop strike action and return to work.

So what about pay? Teacher's dislike the idea of being rewarded for good performance and they fear that their boss (ie. the head) will set their targets unfairly.

Sorry but that's pretty much how the rest of industry works. I get targets to meet. My boss gets his targets from his boss. There are elements of my objectives I hate and I also have grave concerns about the way our team are measured. Frankly it seems like another issue that the rest of society already put up with and teacher's are resisting. There probably will be some teachers with unrealistic targets, most will probably be fair. Some will be too easy. Such is life. It doesn't make the entire principle unfair. In short parents want high performing teachers and the way it comes across is that teachers don't want to be held accountable for their performance.

So lastly pension. Again this is something that the rest of society have already had to stomach. I do have a certain amount of sympathy that the pension you signed up for in good faith is changing for the worse. But ultimately the government is skint and cannot afford the status quo. To put it another way. Let's say it was a private company. It promised pension x to it's employees during the good times when money was plentiful. Now it's making a loss. It can't pay that pension anymore. What's the point in going on strike? What will it change? It simply can't pay money it doesn't have!

Sadly I think it's mainly the latter as to why teacher's are really striking. Go for it. Get it out of your system. Vent your spleen, show your anger then get back to work please. Our kids deserve better than to be saddled with crippling debts in the future to pay unaffordable pensions promised now.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

niceguy2
so a pension that was deemed affordable when last checked is going to be responsible for our "children saddled with crippling debts"?

[niceguy2]

Affordable is such a relative word isn't it?

The government pay the equivalent of 14% of a teacher's gross salary into the pension fund. The teacher pays around 7-9%. So in effect the vast majority of the fund relies upon government money. (Let's ignore the fact that teacher's salary is also government money for now.)

I don't know if you've been reading the news recently but the government is rather skint at the moment. In fact not only is it skint, it's borrowing money like a drowning man trying to grab a lifevest.

So tell me how a pension can be deemed 'affordable' when it's relying on massive contributions from an entity that has no money?

I'm not trying to say that teacher's pensions alone is responsible for saddling our kids with debt. Clearly the government today and of yesteryear are all responsible. But we do need to tackle the pension timebomb and teacher's need to play their part in this if we don't want to sell our kids short.

[handcream]

I had a final salary pension. I now have career average. Its fair tbh because it stops people getting large pay rises at the end and the pension being based on a larger salary. I think with us all living longer that a career average IS better. I could live until my 90's.

There are some terrible teachers out there. Its difficult to get rid of a bad teacher. Why should these crap teachers automatically get a pay rise just for being in place for longer.

Teachers need to get into the real world and recognise they are no different than the rest of us who are also working longer hours with stacks of paperwork.

[chicaguapa]

But we do need to tackle the pension timebomb and teacher's need to play their part in this if we don't want to sell our kids short.

Tbh the real pensions time bomb is that the vast majority of this generation will not have enough money to live on in retirement. So whichever way you look at it, our kids' tax will be funding someone anyway.

Either it's the public sector pensions now or the impovershished private sector with their crap DC pensions and insufficient retirement income.

Even as a private sector worker, I would question why we should be more deserving of state money in the form of benefits than the public sector who are providing a service of which the private sector is benefitting.

My personal view is that most of these debates come down to ideology and whether you value public services and if they are deserving of state money. Your own comment that teachers' own contributions is state money too makes your views clear on that front. Obviously the fact that their work their arses off for their salary still doesn't make it their own money.

[chicaguapa]

To clarify, I mean benefits that the private sector will ultimately need to support their meagre retirement income. Because unless we intend to be stepping over homeless people in the streets, there's going to have to be a whole new tier of benefits for these people. Because they simply won't have enough money to live on.

[Grennie]

Yes I think there are going to be a lot of very poor pensioners in the future. Those inheriting expensive houses will be okay. Those who don't inherit will largely be up shit creek.

[Retropear]

In an ideal world we'd all be paying less tax so we can put more into our own pensions.

I personally would rather do this than pay more tax to fund a few in upper class pensions the rest can only dream of whilst cutting teaching jobs so we have fewer on pay we can't afford to maintain.

Family households have to cut their cloth,the gov are no different.

[Grennie]

Unless you start young, you have to put a lot of money in every month to get anything much of a pension. Most people can't afford that - even with tax cuts

[Retropear]

Well the money fairy aint going to wave it's wand so that is what people will have to do.

[ilovesooty]

Its difficult to get rid of a bad teacher. Why should these crap teachers automatically get a pay rise just for being in place for longer

Automatic progression has gone now. And it's possible to get rid of teachers HTs want out in weeks as from last month.

[handcream]

So last month it was easier to get bad teachers out. Previously it was impossible. What a great time a bad teacher must have had, yearly pay rises, no real chance of being fired and more money for just turning up.