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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if a school turning its canteen halal of kosher is them imposing a faith on people

439 replies

Souredstones · 17/09/2013 18:27

I don't know how I feel about this but a Facebook post has really made me think if a school canteen is halal or kosher then isn't it imposing a faith on its pupils? Or is it? I don't know so I defer to the wise ladies of Mumsnet for a decision

OP posts:
twistyfeet · 19/09/2013 11:47

'And as for dragging a chicken out the backyad and dispatching it, its hardly that.' LesMissAbs, I was talking about me for that bit. Before I stopped eating meat thats how I got my chickens as a friend was a shochet. And we ate meat maybe once a month as chickens take ages to grow. Personally I think that method, free range life then having its head lopped off was the most humane and fastest way but clearly it wouldnt work for mass production or bigger animals.
And I will amend my sentence to make you happy. 'People in some countries eat more meat than neccassary or is sustainable given the vast array of foods available to them and given the environmental impact the meat industry has.' followed by I think we have a duty that the animals we do raise for meat have good lives, are slaughtered as close to where they are reared as possible to avoid the horrors that can happen on transport (and yes I've seen the trampled sheep with broken limbs, chickens shoved into cages with broken legs and wings, thirsty animals in pain and terror) and that the slaughter is as painless as it humanely possible.
I dont think, at the moment, this is happening under mass production, even in the UK.
Happy?

Cravey · 19/09/2013 12:35

I wouldn't be happy with this. Simply because I don't agree with the way to is slaughtered and the prayer thing makes me uncomfy too. Not because its an Islamic prayer just the fact that its a prayer. That's my choice and I wouldn't be eating there. I do wonder with no disrespect at all though what would happen if a school turned its canteen into non halal what the outcome would be.

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 12:49

I'm a Christian and I have no problem with Halal meat. My kids' school is more than 50% Muslim and all meat is Halal there. This is what the bible says: "Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble."

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 12:50

I do wonder why people are worried that a prayer is said over the food. How does that affect you whatsoever?

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 12:52

I think if we were informed exactly how Halal and non Halal animals were killed and watched a few films of how it is done, the vast majority of us would become vegetarian!!!

Cravey · 19/09/2013 12:54

Because its my choice not to do prayer, relegion etc. that's why it makes me uncomfy.

nickelbabe · 19/09/2013 12:58

I am a vegetarian and I think it's highly unethical to impose halal meat on anyone whose religious beliefs don't require it.

because it's cruel to animals. they slit the animal's throat and force it to bleed to death, in pain.

I'm not sure what kosher is, but I suppose it must be the same, because they're not allowed to eat blood.

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 13:06

You are not doing any prayer. The man in the slaughterhouse is.

nickelbabe · 19/09/2013 13:07

i got this about kosher from wikipedia:
The classical rabbis argued that, in a number of cases, only if it is impossible to remove every drop of blood, the prohibition against consuming blood was impractical, and there should be rare exceptions: they claimed that consuming the blood which remained on the inside of meat (as opposed to the blood on the surface of it, dripping from it, or housed within the veins) should be permitted and that the blood of fish and locusts could also be consumed.[38][39][40][41]

To comply with this prohibition, a number of preparation techniques became practiced within traditional Judaism. The main technique, known as melihah, involves the meat being soaked in water for about half an hour, which opens pores.[42] After this, the meat is placed on a slanted board or in a wicker basket, and is thickly covered with salt on each side, then left for between 20 minutes and one hour.[42] The salt covering draws blood from the meat by osmosis, and the salt must be subsequently removed from the meat (usually by trying to shake most of it off and then washing the meat twice[42]) to complete the extraction of the blood. The type of salt used in the process is known as kosher salt.

Melihah is not sufficient to extract blood from the liver, lungs, heart, and certain other internal organs, since they naturally contain a high density of blood, and therefore these organs are usually removed before the rest of the meat is salted. Roasting, on the other hand, discharges blood while cooking, and is the usual treatment given to these organs. It is also an acceptable method for removing blood from all meat.[42]

I don't like the sound of it.
I can also see why people say it's npalatable, because of the salt.

Cravey · 19/09/2013 13:08

Yes I know the slaughter person is doing the prayer. I still don't like it. And as far as I am aware that's my choice.

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 13:09

Your house may have been built with prayers or had lucky pennies put in doorframes. People will have walked down your road praying. The woman who made your wedding dress may have prayed it would go well. Do you see what I mean. It's just not your problem if people aren't asking you to participate in the religious bit.

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 13:10

It's your choice of course, just pointing out it's totally irrational.

Cravey · 19/09/2013 13:15

Yes merry in your view its irrational and that's cool. However that's how I feel. I don't believe in prayer and would rather not eat food that's been prayed over, it's also the way the meat is killed as I said.

Cravey · 19/09/2013 13:17

Oh and as for my house as I built it I doubt if it was prayed over, it may however have a lucky penny. Prayers and lucky charms are totally different. IMO. And therein lies the point. It doesn't matter what you think, what I think or what others think. Except to ourselves. Why do you think you can tell me I am irrational because of my views. I wonder of you would inform someone who prays that they are irrational ?

AdventureTed · 19/09/2013 13:22

MerryMarigold - so does the christian god not have an opinion about causing unnecessary suffering to animals?

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 13:22

Why are lucky charms different?

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 13:24

Ted, he doesn't tell us all to be vegetarian. Any meat eating is causing unnecessary suffering to animals. I think unnecessary suffering to humans is higher up his scale.

twistyfeet · 19/09/2013 13:44

Cravey, I'm not understanding your point. DH is a staunch atheist who no more believes in God than he does fairies. So prayer to him is meaningless magic words and he no more cares if someone says meaningless words over anything than he does if they do interpretive dance. You dont know if someone religious went and blessed every feild of sheep in the UK. What if they did? Would you refuse to eat all sheep? Feel insulted? What if farmers were Christian and blessed their sheep and cows? How would you know? The meat doesnt sparkle like fairy dust.
And charms are prayers and equally magic and meaningless to the average athiest. I'm interested.

ivykaty44 · 19/09/2013 13:55

just pointing out it's totally irrational

and you think that people only eating dead animals that have had a man saying prayers over them is not irrational...!

Sallyingforth · 19/09/2013 14:09

My only objection would be if the method of killing caused more suffering than the normal one. There's disagreement on this but on balance it does seem that they suffer more.

MerryMarigold · 19/09/2013 14:18

ivykaty44, did i ever say i thought wasn't irrational?

Just doesn't bother me, that's all so I don't see why I should deny them school dinners as a result.

AdventureTed · 19/09/2013 14:24

MerryMarigold - an omnipotent god would have the brainpower to care about both people and animals.

Cravey · 19/09/2013 14:26

But just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean that I am irrational. That's the point. It's my choice.

ivykaty44 · 19/09/2013 14:54

merrygold - so you think eat meat and eating halal meat are both irrational

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 19/09/2013 15:10

AT..I am twisting nothing. Some of your posts make me uncomfortable as I feel they are veering towards xenophobia.

I will always stand up against this.

I am bowing out now as stuff going on here today