To ask if a school turning its canteen halal of kosher is them imposing a faith on people

[Souredstones]

I don't know how I feel about this but a Facebook post has really made me think if a school canteen is halal or kosher then isn't it imposing a faith on its pupils? Or is it? I don't know so I defer to the wise ladies of Mumsnet for a decision

Can I just clear up a few misconceptions?

There aren't "halal and non halal" abattoirs, there are in the main abattoirs that run halal and non halal meat on separate days.

BOTH have their spinal cords removed post bse.

BOTH are hung and bled out

Non halal are stunned, hung by the hip then throat cut

Halal are walked into a box, stick their head through a window and have their throat cut so they ARE dead before they are hung.

The entire system at a good abattoir is made as stress free as possible eg a winding path to the slaughter area as cows hate straight paths and they can't see what's about to happen. Paths on an uphill slope as animals like walking uphill. Some even play music.

So forget religion and instead make the effort to only buy ethically sourced meat from British suppliers.

Or go veggie.

Maid, my point was that there should not be exceptions. Particularly on the grounds of what a sky fairy has said, but would be interested to know what the sky fairy has against stunning.

kitten I actually agree. I don't think halal/kosher slaughter should be exempt from UK laws designed to protect against unnecessary cruelty, hence my objection to (and rejection of) halal on animal welfare grounds. I think this is a far safer ground on which to argue than that of religious privilege.

Crescent, just as a matter of interest, why is important that the animal is not dead before the cutting? Why is the violent blow 'wrong' but cutting a terrified animal is ok?

Crescentmoon - what about the 10 percent that isn't stunned? These are innocent animals, not statistics. No animal should ever be forced to endure needless suffering.

'No animal should ever be forced to endure needless suffering.'

Of course not so there's still a long way to go even in UK farming.

Twistyfeet - Absolutely.

If the animal has to hear the prayer, should it not have lessons beforehand so it knows what the prayer means? Also, what language would it have to be in for the animal to understand?

adventure now you are being silly. The prayer is so the human reflects on the responsibility associated with killing a creature for food.

Bob - so why would it matter if the animal could hear it or not?

crescentmoon I posted some research papers earlier, with data to show that non-stunned animals 1. take longer to collapse and 2. present with more blood in their lungs. This supports the premise that stunned animals are rendered unconscious/not breathing more rapidly than non-stunned animals.

For large animals, if a penetrating captive bolt is used properly, death should be almost instantaneous. After that, I have little preference for what happens to the carcass. How would penetrating captive bolt stunning fit in with halal methods? If the animal is rendered dead almost immediately, I guess this wouldn't work? For smaller chicken-sized creatures, a concussive blow followed by cervical dislocation or decapitation would satisfy (well, me, at least).

Of course, proper application above would require a downscaling of meat production/processing and a little more proper care and attention. And likely push the cost up.

does it matter? i thought the point was you have to do it properly, with thought, not under your breath or in theory or muttered. That's why it has to be out loud.

It seems that you are only allowed to ask questions which can be answered in ways which put islam in a favourable light.

Have you read the religious slaughter information sheet on that page crescent?
You don't answer any questions, do you?
I'll state again, I'll go with the RSPCA on this one. They don't have anything apart from scientific research to go on.
I think we should deal with animals as humanely as possible and this is what they advocate.

crescent roadkill might not appeal not becuase of when it died, but because it has tyre marks over it/ guts spilling out of it/ is a badger. though my dad used to bring home some lovely pheasant in season- as a poacher gamekeeper's granddaughter I cant say I have never eaten anything that ahem fell off the back of a volvo.

no, adventure, but I dont think you are correct in assuming the animal has to understand the prayer. perhaps a muslim poster could tell us?

What is the point of hearing something if you can't understand it?

We should be free to ask questions. That is how we learn.

Surely we don't need anyone to confirm that the prayer said, in a human language, is not intended to be linguistically understood by the animal? :) Perhaps there might be a suggestion that the animal understands in a spiritual fashion?

MaidofStars - why couldn't the same message be conveyed whilst it was in an unconscious state then?

MaidofStars - couldn't it have a dream or whatever while unconscious? These are not stupid questions.

Sorry, I was not clear.

Does Islam say that the animal must hear the prayer? or does it say that the person speaking the prayer has to do it out loud and carefully?

I agree that an animal doesn't understand human language, nor is an animal muslim, or jewish, or any faith. but I wondered if in fact the requirement isnt about whether the animal hears it, but whether the person has to say it paying due attention to what he is saying and doing.

Adventure My last post sounded a bit mocking. I apologise - it was intended as "banter". I don't know the answer to your questions (which, to be fair, you weren't asking of me anyway, I just jumped in) but I can't find the post you are responding to, where I assume it is stated that the animal must be hearing i.e. conscious. My understanding is that stunning is proscribed because of the risk of death before bleeding out. I would therefore be very concerned that slaughterhouses using stunning methods but operating to halal standards are actually stunning in a sub-standard fashion, which may cause excess distress.