To ask if a school turning its canteen halal of kosher is them imposing a faith on people

[Souredstones]

I don't know how I feel about this but a Facebook post has really made me think if a school canteen is halal or kosher then isn't it imposing a faith on its pupils? Or is it? I don't know so I defer to the wise ladies of Mumsnet for a decision

Don't eat the Halal meat then.

But what I do object to is you telling Muslims or anyonethat else that THEY should eat less meat.

Fanjo - you have the right to object.

Fanjo The UN has recognised that the global livestock industry is a major contributor to environmental destruction and climate change, even more so than burning of fossil fuels for transport. You might be helping the world more by going veggie for one day a week than switching to a bike. Plus, we are quite greedy eating meat - I've always found it slightly grotesque that many people starve while others get grumpy if they don't get meat twice a day. Entitlement.

In my opinion, everyone should eat less meat. Is it not acceptable to talk about that? To point that out?

twistyfeet we eat far too much meat in the west any chance of stopping the racial stereotyping - in the west, there are huge numbers of vegetarians, and innuit and sami communities have a long history of honouring the animal for giving up its life for them, and see it as their duty to dispatch it with as least pain as possible, while preserving its dignity. And of course, un cold, northerly societies, there is a real biological imperative to consume meat. Are you suggesting that Muslims dont eat as much meat??

And as for dragging a chicken out the backyad and dispatching it, its hardly that. Have you been to a Muslim country on market day and seen hordes of animals transported in unsuitable and unsafe transport, with no regards to their welfare? Or a screaming animal dragged through a city to its death, with a limb broken in the struggle dragging limply?

We have mass slaughter in this country to try and enforce minimum welfare standards. I agree we have become too divorced from the sources of our food, but standards imof animal welfare are far far higher than in most Muslim countries. I agree that you can tell a lot about mankind and a persons basic moral values by how they treat animals, particularly if it is within their power to do something to aid their comfort.

I think it's one of those things where , because you know about something and object to it for whatever reason (cruelty or objection to the faith in this case) suddenly the idea of not being able to have something seems so awful. But when you think about it, you have cereal or porridge for breakfast, mac and cheese with salad for lunch and a tin of tomato soup with cheese on toast for tea, the next day it would be cheese and tomato pizza, it's possible you would go two or three days at the school not eating the meat option at all without even realising. So the reality isn't always as bad or has the impact you expect.

We are all MadeofStars - animals are too. While we are cosily debating, animals are enduring nightmarish deaths which, only a few years ago in this country, would have had everyone up in arms.

Fanjo - would you still have no problem with it if islam wasn't involved?

Why must we remain silent as the standards of decency and humanity we grew up with are chipped away bit by bit?

What values does Britain have? I honestly don't know anymore.

Obviously that's alot of cheese but the point is the same, you start thinking you will miss what in reality you didnt have that much of in the first place.

bumbleymummy 5.3, the chapter which you quote, is quite logical if you were reading it 2000 years ago and trying to avoid food poisoning abmnd discoraging people to eat rotting meat, while modern methods of slaughter, storage and preperation were yet to be invented.

Unfortunately, Sharia law is associated with an inability to change with the times, which is not surprising when it is often enforced by religious clerics who lack formal legal training. Aspects of Sharia law make Roman law from 2000 years ago look positively advanced.

Wheresmycaffeinedrip - so should we all just accept sharia then?

Other countries value their heritage, but England's is derided and denied. All those people who fought to improve the lives of people and animals are being betrayed. If you stand for nothing, you end up standing for anything.

I like the quote "we are all made of stars" - yes it's cheesy, but my daughter has it on a t shirt and it reminds me that everyone is equal.

Wheresmycaffeinedrip - are you honestly not grateful for the rights and freedoms you have?

We should accept that other people believe other things and there's nothing we can do about it. Their right to eat is the same as ours and there are back up options that Wont harm anybody.

It's a school fill of kids. Kids who didnt make any of these decisions for themselves and are friends with people who you may or may not approve of the parents belief.

More and more, I think a lot of problems are caused by the Sharia legal system. Obviously it varies from country to country, but a common element is its inability to updated quickly and easily, or to have a readily accessible stock of recorded and consistent judicial precedents. Hence it is entirely possible to change its very meaning by interpreting it differently one year to the next.

Imagine if the UK had as its main source of law a legal code which was written in the time of Boudecia's ancestors and most of it hadn't been updated since.

Wheresmycaffeinedrip - you haven't answered my question. Would you be just as happy living in Afghanistan or Saudi?

"Other countries value their heritage, but England's is derided and denied. All those people who fought to improve the lives of people and animals are being betrayed. If you stand for nothing, you end up standing for anything"

That is reminiscent of certain Facebook statuses I have seen

Other countries value their heritage, but England's is derided and denied

That is such utter bollocks, I mean really.

And Sharia is no older than 1400 years old, if my rough reckoning is correct. The English common law still cites statutes and cases that are hundreds of years old, we should remember. Not defending Sharia (which holds no charms for me), but the contrasts between it and our common law in particular are not as great as one might think.

I know what you are saying but England was essentially built on slavery and colonialism and on the oppression of our neighbours - personally I find it slightly embarrassing.
If you cannot what Bristol and Liverpool were built on, read some books, open your eyes.

*cannot notice

Of course I wouldn't live there. I wouldnt want to live in parts of this country either, I wouldn't want to live in any country where I didn't know anyone or speak the language.

But I don't want to cause upset or offence either. There are things we all disagree with in any system. It's not perfect and there are countless horror stories from all over the world.

In an ideal world everyone would be equal, but it's not an ideal world. Far from it. But on a day to day basis we do have to try and just get along.

And yes I agree animals are not treated fairly. Some countries are better than others. Britain has a long long way to go still to and I've seen under cover documentaries about what goes on and they aren't pretty, so I think we are kidding ourselves if we think out meat is "ok" it's not. It's really not which I'm sure you know. As for RSPCA minimum standard well they are certainly "minimum".

I am always intrigues just how far people take their animal beliefs. I would love for me and my family to be fully vegan but I don't know enough about nutrition to ensure that I could do it safely.

And what about medicines. Deodorant make up etc we can try our hardest to avoid what we can but animals suffer every day in labs. How many animals died in pain whilst discovering morphing was lethal to guinea pigs, paracetamol kills cats, chimps injected with HIv but have us the break throughs we have today. It happened and still happens and would you refuse medication for your child?

I expect the answer is no. My point is that somewhere we have to draw a line and accept that sometimes as much as we don't like it and don't want it to happen we won't be able to stop it.

Morphine

"Would you be just as happy living in Afghanistan or Saudi"

you may not be an EDL supporter but questions like this and implying that Muslims are trying to turn England into Saudi and take over and destroy "England's heritage" are exactly the sort of things they say and promote.

Fanjo - you are twisting my words again! Anyone who reads my posts and your replies can see what you are doing.

YABU to think it will suddenly turn your DCs Muslim

YANBU at all to not like this as standard practise as I don't agree at all that its as humane as no halal methods if slaughter, quite the opposite & it's something that really gets my goat too (excuse the pun) & I suspect if everyone was more informed, especially the DCs eating the halal slaughtered meats, there would be a FAR bigger outcry against this - it's PC & an easy life gone mad IMHO

though it won't affect us, as DD is pescetarian & I rarely eat meat & would NEVER eat anything halal

Nothing to do with religion at all, but personal values & having others values forced on us

Just realised I lost a word there should have read - COMMERCIAL Halal Slaughter

Rockinhippy - You are right - education is the key. We need to know exactly what is involved so we can make informed decisions as intelligent adults.