To ask if a school turning its canteen halal of kosher is them imposing a faith on people

[Souredstones]

I don't know how I feel about this but a Facebook post has really made me think if a school canteen is halal or kosher then isn't it imposing a faith on its pupils? Or is it? I don't know so I defer to the wise ladies of Mumsnet for a decision

I would actually think really highly of a school that had a vegetarian only menu because I think it's good for children to learn that a) we need to think carefully about how we keep and kill animals for food, b) a healthy diet doesn't need to contain much meat really and that c) sometimes there are clashes of culture that mean we all need to compromise.

beastofburden Agree that this is a sticking point - publicity of such a switch might be tantamount to promoting religion in schools (something I am not OK with).

I think a school saying bangers and mash is off the menu because religious group X have stated they cannot eat from a canteen where pork is handled, is a very bad precedent to set. (I know this has not actually happened!)

A school saying all meals are vegetarian because it is better nutritionally and has a positive impact on learning I would have no problem with at all.

Exactly, hop. It's a message of religious tolerance but one which is applied equally to all groups. And it has excellent nutritional and animal welfare credentials.

And it is cheap and easy to do. And the kids could grow some of it in the school garden.

sigh we all know it won't happen, don't we.

Yep beast sadly so.

I also agree that a very good vegetarian menu would be fest option.

The RSPCA thinks that religious slaughter is crueler than slaughter that includes pre stunning.
We made the rules re stunning for a reason. I don't see why there should be exceptions for people who believe in really odd sky fairies.

least vegetarian schools would stop all the horsemeat in school dinner scandals
Mind you, they could be hiding it in that veggie sausage....

Britain's animal rights are being sacrified on the altar of political correctness.

lol who knows whats in a veggie sausage... but it has to be better than what's in a cheap meat sausage.

Adventure, Compassion in World Farming is a good organisation if you would like to donate or volunteer to make a difference. There is a long way to go before we can be all that proud of Britain's animal rights in mass-market farming.

And why are they struggling?
I'll still go with what the RSPCA said.

MaidofStars can you not see your hypocrisy? When you are dismissing the objections of people of other faith's to eating halal you're dismissing it as 'just a prayer' which can't make any difference.

But when you're talking about the right of Muslim's to eat halal suddenly what is 'just a prayer' that 'doesn't make any difference' becomes of the utmost importance to you and you are passionate about arguing their case. a

Can you not see the hypocrisy? You are prepared to airily dismiss religious objections from people of other faiths whilst at the same time defending the right of muslims NOT to eat something because apparently these prayers are important.

What you are essentially saying is that when a prayer is that Muslim's religious sensibilities and practices are important and should be shown consideration whilst the religious sensibilities of others shouldn't be. Because you see Islam as sacred and protected whereas you view other religions and there members as unimportant.

Incidentally Muslim's don't NEED halal meat any more than non-Muslim's NEED non-halal meat. Alternatives are available.

Which is why it has nothing to do with need. It as to do with prioritizing the needs of one group above another. When non-halal meat is served in schools it is the norm to serve a halal meat alternative. When halal meat is served it is now becoming the norm to refuse alternative.

There is the rub. That one groups need for choice is negated whilst another is promoted. It has nothing to do with tolerance, it's about imposition. If it was about tolerance a choice would be provided no matter what the mainstream choice was.

Incidentally if so few children wish to eat the non-halal alternative why is it such a problem to provide it?

They should not be doing this unless it is a Jewish or Muslim school. On college I worked at with a huge number of Muslim students had halal meat only in one cafe and non halal in the other.

Sikhs are not allowed to eat meat that has been prayed over by anyone who is not Sikh so you are discriminating directly for them, and many people do not like or have objections to the way animals are slaughtered for kosher or halal food.

Then there are substances that are haram but not meat such as nutmeg (OK it's debatable) balsamic vinegar and cheese.

There should always be vegan alternatives so that there is something most people can eat regardless of their faith or not. I know there are people with allergies and intolerances as well.

Maid, I'm a vegetarian by principle. Ds and dh are not. I would object vociferously to ds being served school dinners containing halal meat as I am opposed to cruelty towards animals. My principles are just as important to me as those based on religion are to the religious.

Agree vegetarian school meals would solve all problems but doubt very much the majority of parents would agree, sadly.

Crescent- concern for animal welfare is something we need more of in the UK. If the debate around halal/kosher made us all more mindful of what is done to bring us our meat, it would be a good thing. I suspect that in its day, halal was indeed by far the most humane and respectful method of slaughter, and as you say, the ideals behind it are good. It's a shame that the actual technique hasn't been updated to reflect those ideals, but of course updating religious rules of life is always very difficult.

I also eat fish if I dont trust the meat, though aware that fish can also be tricky.

No non Jewish school is going to serve kosher meat and it won't be acceptable to people who keep kosher anyway as the dietary laws mean that milk and meat must be kept separate and served on separate crockery & cutlery. Jewish people don't expect to be pandered to in term of food. If they are not too bothered they eat vegetarian when out and if they are bothered they bring a packed lunch. It's a non issue.

Crescent I have said before that I am a bit wary of the evidence on both sides. But I would go with the RSPCA's advice, which does say that stunning ought to be always carried out. Halal slaughter with stunning I would have thought is as good as anything else. I think most of the concerns here are over halal slaughter without stunning.

Crescentmoon - I think that being as kind as possible is the best way to serve your god (if you believe in one) or your conscience. If people eat less meat there will be less cruelty and possibly less cancer in humans.

Then the best way is just to cut out all meat, surely?

Exactly beast.
Crescent moon, I think you are just trying to muddy the water.
The RSPCA say that animals should be stunned before they are killed. Why do you think they say this?

SeaSickSal Firstly, I haven't seen an objection to this policy based on the opposing "needs" of different religions. I have seen objections on political principle, but not any Christians (for example) objecting to the animal somehow becoming unsuitable for Christian consumption, once it's been slaughtered according to this ritual. I was brought up in Catholicism and I can't identify a reason from my teachings that would cause me to reject halal meat (on the basis of religion) - am happy to be corrected. Any objection based on "Well, why should we give in to them?" is political, not comparative religion, and can (I think) be dismissed on the specific point of competing needs of various religious groups.

Secondly, I can assure you that I am as Islamophobic as they come. Also, Christianityophobic, Judaismophobic and so on. I abhor religion and I privilege none. However, I am also pretty tolerant and if concessions can be made without apparent detriment to others, then I'm happy to make them. I'll save my fight for campaigns to stop public funding of faith schools, rather than a meat policy that is trying to be inclusive of all.

edam I covered my objection to halal meat earlier - I strongly oppose it on animal welfare grounds. For the OP, my advice was to fight on that premise, rather than get into sticky issues of religious freedom.

For the record, I am vegetarian. I would completely approve of vegetarian school dinners. Take away choice, moi? ;)

Sorry to add to my post ^. I am not ignoring the religious objections of Jewish and Sikh pupils - I have been reading with interest. I am trying to simplify the debate by going with majorities.

It's not just the RSPCA that want animals stunned, it's European law. The exception is on religious grounds and it is for the religious to argue for that exception, not for others to argue for the implementation of stunning. The defence is with Islam/Judaism, to argue why not stunning is critical to the halal/kosher process.