To ask if a school turning its canteen halal of kosher is them imposing a faith on people

[Souredstones]

I don't know how I feel about this but a Facebook post has really made me think if a school canteen is halal or kosher then isn't it imposing a faith on its pupils? Or is it? I don't know so I defer to the wise ladies of Mumsnet for a decision

What Fanjo said.

It doesn't make any difference to me if some words have been said. They are just words to me. But it makes a difference for them not to be said to someone who is Muslim, then fair enough, say the words and let's have some food.

Souredstones On the principle of praying over meat, how can an atheist bring themselves to care? The words are meaningless, because you (and I) flat out don't believe the basis/intent/content.

If someone wants to say thanks to Santa before they crock a chicken, let them get on with it. My private thoughts about the process are one thing, telling them they shouldn't proceed because it's imposing Santa worship on me is a different, and (I think) ludicrous thing.

Of course, if this issue (as hypothetical as it actually is) is one of publicity and political scoring for Islam, it becomes more of a problem for me. A sign/note saying "We now serve halal meat" is fine; an undercurrent that "we" ("good Christian soldiers") are having to make concessions to Muslim pupils, that "we" are having tolerance imposed, that if "we" went to "their" (always ill-defined) country "we" would be given short shrift, starts to get people's backs up.

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All you objecting due to cruelty, do you still eat crabs?

If someone is slitting throats all day and hearing screams of fear and pain, what psychological effect will this have on them?

If they don't like the work, I'd suggest they try a different profession.

Ted - Actually, he put it as a pathology of the dread of being around homosexuals caused by irrational fear, intolerance, and/or hatred. It was using the language of an oppressors - the mental health "experts" and their supporters - and using the oppressors mentality against them by making it pathological. Language evolved and many other groups have used the same formula. Many parts of the struggle involve pointing out to more powerful parties that their actions aren't normal or better, just common.

And Temple Gradin is a well respected expert in the field around animal care and slaughter whose writings on the topic are quite interesting.

From my POV I would say that if ritual slaughter is not cruel then I don't mind halal and kosher meat being available, any more than I mind shops stocking Bibles. But I don't want to eat it myself, so I would like it labelled please, including in restaurants etc.

If it is cruel than it doesn't help to tell me that crab fishing is even worse- let's not expand the amount of inhumane treatment of animals for food: we should be reducing it. By all means, point out the hypocrisy so that more people challenge inhumane farming and slaughter in other areas- right behind you there. But don't ask me to accept ritual slaughter because crab farming is done badly.

Why do I care about a prayer if I don't share the faith? Some atheists are indifferent either way, but many are not. I'm not indifferent. Specifically, in schools, I don't like to see faith practices- including Christian ones. In places of worship, or private homes, that's a different matter. I think schools ought to be neutral, which in this context means vegetarian.

So, as you tuck into a nice korma, you'd be thinking 'oooh this meat has been prayed over when I wasn't there'?

Islamophobia is a term often used to try to shut someone up with shame and ridicule when they are saying something you don't want to hear.

me, cat I only buy curry if I know the meat has been farmed to a high welfare standard. I wouldnt eat curry from a restaurant cos I see the meat they buy in the market . So it's usually M&S hangs head in middle-class shame

and- sorry cat for drip post- It's the message to school children that praying over meat and killing it ritually is important, that I would object to.

I'm not sure why some people are protesting the right of halal whilst also claiming that other people who object on religious grounds are being silly because it's 'just a few words being said over it'. Surely if that's the case then the same people should also be rejecting the wish to eat halal too because that, as well, is 'just a few words said over it'.

But what they actually think (but won't say) is that actually as good politically correct people they have a hierachy of religions at which Islam comes right at the top and any other religion way, way lower.

I don't eat halal because I object on the grounds of cruelty and also on religion.

But I do agree that Muslims should have the choice to eat it.

But that's what it's all about really isn't it, choice. And I object to these schools who are making their meals entirely halal when there used to be a choice as effectively what they are saying is:

"Yes, when we had non-halal meat we gave Muslim's the choice not eat it but still eat meat. But now we have halal meat we are not going to give you that choice. Because you are not as important. What is important to us is the wants and need of our Muslim users and we do not prioritize the needs of non-muslim service users as highly. So tough".

I think that's what people object to, it's that subtext that one group of people is prioritized on the grounds of race/religion whilst another is sidelined. Never a pleasant experience for anybody.

And incidentally caffienedrip I don't eat crab, or lobster for that matter.

As an athiest I am not bothered by the prayer said because it is just words. You could scream 'THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM' braveheart style and it would have exactly the same impact on me; none. Object to the method of killing, but why object to a prayer?

To get back to the OP (which was about the entire canteen being halal/kosher), surely this is restricting the choices of others that do not share the Muslim/Jewish religion?

Wouldn't a vague principle of don't stop me eating what I would like to eat and I won't stop you eating what you would like to eat apply?

interesting thread. Not bothered what words are said over anything, as an atheist I don't do 'offensive'. (Although cries of 'let's watch the X factor, it's really good' come close...)

animal slaughter is never going to be fun for the animal concerned. Homo sapiens is designed to eat meat, but can manage without it. There is no such thing as painless, distress-free slaughter. If you object to animal slaughter for meat you must not eat meat, full stop.

ice it would be too hard to have endless meat choices, both to cook and to serve, and there are also rules about meat coming into contact with other foodstuffs (especially Kosher rules, depending on how strict people are).

Much simpler to have it all vegetarian?

that's my view, hop. And it would get kids eating vegetables which they are sorely in need of....

beast yes I get that, but removing all pork from school menus doesn't seem equitable? It doesn't seem to respect British traditions at all. And removing all meat just seems to disadvantage the atheists who were, up until now, happily minding their own business.

Perhaps given some of my other comments I should add that I have no problems with halal meat going into me or my DD as long as it is done silently (ie. no big posters advertising that what you are eating has been specifically catered for any religious group - because schools shouldn't be promoting any religion, let alone one over another).

I would object to items being taken off the menu at the request of any given faction.

It would help if there was a radical version of Christianity that demanded that animals be killed in silence...

ice It's an interesting one for me. I actually wouldnt object to a high quality vegetarian provision, because although my DC are atheists and eat everything I think it would have been educational for them to see that we all eat too much meat for health and that vegetables are "proper" food too. So as a good old British compromise there could be a bit of win-win there.

Most kids are not short of meat in their diet, especially the cheap meat served in schools. They get far too much meat, salt, sugar and fat, and evidence now seems to be coming out that the poorer they are, the more risk they are at of early obesity. They could all do with eating a lot more veg and fruit. So the idea appeals to me.

ice I am sure the flying spaghetti monster could help, if we asked for Guidance.

SeaSickSal Struggling to see, in terms of religion, how having only halal meat available sidelines the choices of others. As an atheist, I don't want to put words into the mouths of believers, but I don't see how having an Islamic ritual prayer before the kill makes any difference to a Christian/Scientologist/whatever's ability to eat said meat.

This is where "tolerance" is key. Does it make any difference to the non-Muslim (except as a point of debate/principle)? No. Does it "remove a choice" from the non-Muslim? Maybe. Does the removal of that choice affect the lifestyle of the non-Muslim? No.

In this (hypothetical) case, perhaps there are choices being removed, perhaps there is weighting toward some particular religious group, perhaps the needs of the Muslim users would be prioritised. So what? We've all got to live together, and that means compromise. Non-Muslims don't have a need for non-halal meat (in terms of religion), Muslims have a need for halal meat. Serve halal.

(All concerns re: animal welfare ignored for the purposes of above).

Maid I think for this atheist what would be difficult is the message to children that ritual slaughter and prayer over dying animals are legitimate things for the school to be prioritising.

FWIW I also think it is bad that schools serve cheap mass-farmed meat which sends another, different, but equally unacceptable message.