To ask if a school turning its canteen halal of kosher is them imposing a faith on people

[Souredstones]

I don't know how I feel about this but a Facebook post has really made me think if a school canteen is halal or kosher then isn't it imposing a faith on its pupils? Or is it? I don't know so I defer to the wise ladies of Mumsnet for a decision

I wasn't going to comment on here and normally avoid these threads like the plague but I just wanted to point out/ repeat a couple of points.

First of all there is no non Jewish school in the land serving kosher food. It is expensive and there are far too many rules regarding its preparation for anyone to think it's a good idea outside of a Jewish setting.

Secondly, there are only a few hundred thousand Jews in this country. Most people don't realise that and assume that the population is much bigger.

Third and final point. To those of you who object to eating halal meat - sorry to say that you've probably eaten it hundreds of times already. Could you tell the difference? No.

I always find threads like this upsetting because there are genuine threats to the continuation of kosher/halal slaughter in the UK. What would that mean to people like me? Should I leave the UK in search of a country that allows me the freedom to practice my religion? I thought we were a tolerant society.

In answer to your third point bigw, personally I couldn't participate in something that caused greater animal suffering when there is a more humane method out there. Its relatively easy to stop eating meat, which is what your religion is gradually pushing me towards. Id honestly be hard pushed to say when I last ate meat, probably about six weeks ago, and that was a fillet steak from a farm shop.

BigW

This is difficult. I am sure you and I would agree on some traditional practices linked to religious practices which are not suited to the UK, such as FGM. Nobody here is defending FGM, or saying that ritual slaughter is as bad as that. But we do have a limit to what we agree to tolerate in the UK in order to promote religious freedom.

So does ritual slaughter cross that line? From the evidence on animal suffering that I have seen in the past, I am concerned that it might do, but I don't know how good that evidence is, so I am not sure.

If the evidence were to be good, then I would say that this is one faith practice we can't support, so you would have to eat imported meat or go veggie. But if there were no good evidence on aminal suffering, then I think it would be reasonable to carry on with it.

Schools are however a special place and I think should be religiously neutral. So if diet is becoming a big issue, I would say state schools ought to ge vegetarian.

BigW YOUR right to practise YOUR religion starts and ends with you. I would be unwilling to accept any extension of this right, where such extension allows/causes undue harm to other animals, human or non-human, especially in those who are unable to consent to such harm.

Btw BigW it sounds as if you would be able to live off New Zealand Lamb as this is halal never buying it again

MaidofStars - I agree with this.

BW

I have already posted this but there are schools serving kosher for their Jewish pupils, special schools in both Brent and Barnet do. They are prepared off site and reheated (seperately ) then served with separate cutlery.

I just believe that if people are going to kill animals, they should do it in the way that causes least suffering.

It would seem odd to to try to ban Halal slaughter on the grounds of protecting animals, without taking a long look at all the other practices involved in the mass production of meat for consumption.

AdventureTed - if you would like research, I recommend the writings by Temple Gradin (her main issue is the habit across all slaughter methods of hanging animals to drain the blood). She has a website and several books on the topic.

Also, while phobia originates in ancient Greek, the origin of using it to mean hate begins with the LGBT* movement when homosexuality was considered by the system to be a mental disorder, people who fought used the same language from the system to treat the hate and oppression of others as a mental illness as well. Trying to use ancient greek origins to negate the struggle ignores that the history of the struggle is important and that language has evolved.

Spork - George Weinberg coined the term to mean an irrational fear of gay people.

Crescentmoon - the animal should suffer as little distress and pain as possible.

we can eat the meat of christians

At the risk of lowering the tone, crescentmoon this had me imagining you chowing down on a bit of Plymouth Brethren or munching some Methodist!

Spork - Weinberg stated this on his Huffpost Blog.

So why, if you are a follower of a faith or an atheist are you not allowed to object to prayers of another religion being spoken over your meat?

I know it seems a small thing to some, mainly atheists, but if its such a big issue for Muslims to have the prayer said over the meat and acknowledged as such then the contrary position can also be said to be true?

Or am I being too simplistic?

I'm genuinely confused over this whole issue!

Souredstones - that's what I thought.

hmm or how can the objection to words not being said while killing be more or less valid than an objection to words being said while killing....

I sometimes think the atheists get a raw deal because we are somehow expected to be more grown up about the whole thing.

Like:

Muslim: I won't eat it if X hasn't been said.
Jew: I won't eat it if Y hasn't been said.
Atheist: I won't eat it if X or Y has been said.
Everyone: Oh don't be ridiculous Atheists...why should you care....

Surely insisting that magic words be said is no more or less ridiculous than insisting they aren't?

such tolerance on this thread (and I am an atheist)

Eh fanjo? Sorry if I've offended anyone!

ha...well yes I suppose as with many areas of life it is a matter of being tolerant right up until it actually inconveniences you personally.

It doesn't inconvienience me to respect someone's religion and their wish to have prayers said over meat, no, if it means a lot to them.

If you are happy for your kids to eat meat, halal or therwise, regardless of its' provenance, ie if you aren't bothered whether the animals were free-range or treated and slaughtered in a humane fashion then YABVVU and a hypocrite.

IceBeing - true.