aibu to be sick of seeing bfing vs ffeeding debates?

[ImNotABarbieGirl]

That's it really. I've just turned the tv on and AGAIN...there it is! It just infuriates me.

I still bfeed dd (22 months) I already live with friends and family making me feel uncomfetable, ignoreing little funny jokes/comments about it. I really do not need to turn the television on and hear some woman spouting how its disgusting etc on national television.

It annoys me moreso (sp?) That it is never a fair debate. It is always two extremest type people who just want to point out how wrong, disgusting etc the other party is.

Surely most people have access to information and support out there to make an informed choice about what's best for them. So what is the point of all this then? It seems its just another way for us to belittle eachotherparenting choices

Please excuse grammer/spelling

Lazeyjaney the human immune system reaches maturity between 5 and 7 if that biology teacher is right not when babies wean to solids.

Telling someone to fuck off just because you don't agree with them, very mature!

Mini, I know reading this thread is very depressing, but just to let you know that there are people out there that agree with you! :)

And yes, I do care about how other people's babies are fed. Not to the extent where I lie in bed worrying about it, but still. I care because I don't like the vilification of bfeeders. I care because this country is so brainwashed that there is a good chance my future grandchildren will be ffed. I care the same way I care about other public issues, like the population on the whole getting more overweight and more unhealthy.

Mini. Be a love and go away and read Trish Greenhalgh's book 'How to read a Paper, the basics of Evidence based medicine' Come back and tell us what you've learned, and when you can quote statistics meaningfully rathe than just regurgitating what is written on certain websites that sut your own agenda.
I get the impression you may work in paediatric care in some capacity, and it really worries me that vulnerable women may be exposed to your dogmatic views when get are at their lowest ebb. Rein it in. If my post comes across as patronising, then I'm afraid that's a deliberate attempt to match your own tone through this thread. FWIW I am pro BF and encouraging mothers to attempt this beneficial part of their caregiving role. That said, my own take on things, yes having l

...having looked at all the evidence myself, is that there are far bigger fish to fry in addressing health inequalities and future health outcomes. Posted at 3.20am while up feeding my little one :)

Hear hear mssingerbrains! Minifingers - you are very right, be happy with that and leave the defensive people to it. Some people can't stand the fact that breast milk is the perfect food for babies, and even toddlers, and they will do anything to turn away from that. If Breastfeeding were not such an effort, there would be more people doing it.

Mini of course the DC who are in dire poverty experience greater health issues. That is because they are in dire poverty.

Increasing breastfeeding amongst this group is one (relatively) small way to help. Indeed, I've worked for years and years now with pregnant teens in or leaving care, and I always encourage breast feeding as a first option. Always.

However, let's be very honest here. Breast fed or not, these mothers and babies will still suffer health issues. They will still fill up our doctors surgeries and hospitals. Because it aint the lack of breast feeding that is the central problem is it? It's poverty!!!!!

So really the central question here, is how do we tackle child poverty in the UK. A many faceted problem. And one that will in no way be helped by self appointed, self important one trick ponies.

one day your children will be older and you realise you no longer give a shit
The most sensible thing ever said on mn.

Lazeyjaney the human immune system reaches maturity between 5 and 7 if that biology teacher is right not when babies wean to solids

So? Many of our systems don't develop fully till early twenties.

I hate that it is only on mn that ff is only described as something you had no choice with, and even then the harpies often lecture that they are uneducated, unintelligent or that everyone can bf, there is never a reason not to.
On the other hand, anyone who didn't because they didn't want to either never admit it or go on netmums instead. I amnot ashamed,it was not something I would ever have done. What other people do is up to them, I couldn't give a bum but personally I find the harpies much more offensive than Nestle.

My wife BF all our three sons.I loved watching her do it as it was so lovely to see. I did wish i could have done some feeding so now I love giving my youngest grandchild his ff.

BF both of mine, and I'm completely in agreement with roweeena:

'I see many many new mothers really bloody struggling, really upset and heading towards PND because of the difficulties they have had feeding. I suspect that there are a hell of a lot of new mums out their who really didn't enjoy there first months with their babies solely because of trying to breastfeed exclusively.

Quote all the facts, research and statistics that you like, but in reality when you are faced with a tearful, depressed, guilt ridden new mum who is on the verge of breaking down and a baby that is not gaining weight all of that needs to go out of the window.'

I had a huge supply of milk and a greedy first baby who could practically empty both breasts in under 10 minutes. It hurt like nothing I'd ever experienced before, good latch and a suck like dynorod. The blood didn't bother her at all, but I used to watch in fear and cry when she woke to feed because of the anticipation of the pain.
It stopped being agony around three months in.
So anyone that chose to ff faced with that would have had my full support.
What got me through was a fast and problem free labour,very supportive family, an OH who did everything else, I had no other children mithering me and the baby slept for 7+hours a night plus naps. Expressing was easy, all I had to do was hold the pump to the other breast and I got 4oz in 10 minutes.
Take any of that away and I'd have been ff more likely than not.

I reckon most women try BF before they FF. And I reckon most who FF (not all) feel conflicted about it to a smaller or greater extent. So it really fucks me off to hear people talking about how FF is a selfish 'choice' from women who don't care enough about their babies to try and protect them from SIDS etc.

And you know what-women who choose to FF from birth are adults who are entitled to make their own choice based on as much or as little research as they like. It is no one else's business. So minifingers and other people who think it's their place to judge them and show them the 'error of their ways' can fuck off, frankly. I don't judge people who choose to feed their kids differently to how I choose to feed mine or who sleep train differently or dress them in party outfits every day. NONE OF MY BUSINESS. My boobs and their ability to feed, my baby and her preferences/illnesses and my mind and its ability to make decisions, are NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.

Shame that all those lovely anti-bodies didn't stop DS2 getting Chicken Pox at 9wks old. He had it very mildly, I have no idea how feeding method contributed to that.

BF didn't prevent DS1 from developing several food allergies.

BF is great, and has additional benefits, but it's not a magical wonder cure for all, and people do get excessive about over-hyped benefits.

Rates of starting with BF have risen well in recent years, so the message is getting through. What is more of a concern is the rate of people switching to FF, and maybe there needs to be more follow-up and support beyond the first few weeks to help people going.
With DS1 feeding was settled and established by 6 weeks. With DS2, my problems were worse with soreness and cracking around weeks 6-9. If I hadn't have had a positive BF experience first time round, there is a realistic question mark of whether I could have kept going and come out of that phase. My experience of growth spurts and knowing that it would settle and the confidence to get out and actively seek help got me through to the stage where feeding is enjoyable.

How you can offer and make support easily avaliable in a non-preachy way I'm not sure. I think there should be more coverage of BF in school where it's not an emotive issue directly affecting lives (unlike in pregnancy/ early motherhood), but having that awareness from a younger age would be good for normalising BFing.

If it's purely altruistic concern about public health driving people like mini I wonder if you are similarly strident and involved in campaigning and lecturing others about other (larger) public health issues such as obesity, physical inactivity or smoking?

Now, how many MNers are at risk of "costing the NHS money" due to one of those? Shall we all spend as much time flaming them as some MNers do FFing parents?

And if it's all about concern for the NHS's budget, then frankly everyone should just stop having kids full stop! Especially those selfish women with health problems, obstetric complications or high BMIs.

(please note, in case it isn't clear, I am not being serious)

I also wonder how much personal confidence has to do with longer term success at BF. On another forum I use, it is common for those who are anxious about public feeding, especially those who will bottle feed when out (usually expressing milk) to switch to FF before 6 months. I think that's part of a wider feminist issue than specifically about feeding method.

Expressing is a very useful tool in BFing, but it can be damaging making you feel like a dairy producer rather than having that physcial connection with feeding. For someone expressing regularly, it is double the work as you spend at least as much time expressing, then the original time feeding milk to baby, so it can become a big burden that makes FF seem more attractive.

Also obsessions with centile graphs can lead to poor decision making. How many posts on here are about HVs recommending a BFer add formula if a baby is going down the centile charts, when a baby appears perfectly healthy and well proportioned. Babies grow at different rates, and the system for judging if a baby is well fed is still hung up in the quantitative FF era, rather than more subjective measures like nappy contents, and baby behaviour and appearence.

Vinegar, I'd like all the evangelicals to be honest about their raising of their children too, being as we have a child obesity problem booming in this country, and the usual solution trotted out is for schools to educate children In The Ways of Healthy Lifestyles.
So, committed bf's, are you all ensuring your children are eating healthily and getting enough exercise on a daily basis? Or are they overweight and underexercised?

And themselves, Silver - presumably to be that evangelical you must be a paragon of healthy virtue yourself......

No?

Why is it only when its regarding BF that people seem to positively rejoice in shooting the messenger. There's plenty of evidence out there to show BF is best for babys. But when someone states that then they are 'forcing' a woman to do that? There's also plenty of evidence that stuffing your face full of junk food isn't great for you either - it doesn't stop me doing it but I dont get super freaking defensive about being told its not the healthiest choice. Antenatally mums need to be provided with education to make those choices. Some people on here make it sound like there are breast feeding nazis stomping up to women and screaming statistics and research at them. I'd say that doesn't happen (ny more than a fuckwit approaching a fat person in McDonalds and spouting off). But IF I'm overweight I dont scream that the research is probably flawed. I accept I have taken it on board and made my decision anyway. So why, when the subject is BF cant people behave more reasonbly.

Examples of arguments that are ridiculous:

1. We dont know what causes SIDS so how can you say what prevents it.

It's not a fact of not liking the message.

It's how the message is delivered that is the problem. B/Fing is promoted and supported (ime from the pg I am experiancing right now) from the minute you book in with the M/W.

Thats fine. But what also should be supported is a woman's right to choose. Some women can't B/F for whatever reason. Some women choose not to B/F for whatever reason.

Both women should be supported. Screaming that '1000's of babies will die if not B/F' may be factually true when you include developing countries or draught ridden nations where a box of formula costs a months wages, then of course if mothers can't B//F or chose not to in those countries, that baby is much more at risk of dying.

But that is due to poverty and disease. Not the actual formula itself.

B/Fing is better for baby. We all know and acknowledge that fact. But there are situations when the very act of B/Fing causes other problems that are detrimental to the baby, and to the mother, and to the rest of that family unit. When B/Fing is at the detriment of other things, then the small benefit achieved by B/fing is cancelled out many times by other things.

Drop the approach of 'I'm just telling it like it is, not my fault if you don't like it,' is the same one used by those fruit loops who stand outside abortion clinics screaming at frightened pregnant teens.

It's not on.

It screams of self importance rather than empathy. It also screams of being attached to the campaign rather than having any particular goal in mind.

There was a thread yesterday from a Mum at the end of her tether, who had a tongue tied baby, problems with milk supply etc. She sounded in a very bad way indeed.

In what way was the message that breast is best going to help? In truth, the messengers don't care! She and women like her are an inconvenience to them.

The reality is that for this Mum, the second best alternative ie FF is a perfectly reasonable choice. In fact, given her state of mind, it's a fantastic choice. And she is lucky to have it. Lucky, lucky, lucky! Women all around the world don't have this choice...let's not forget that.

I cried on my PFB so much in those first three months, I'm surprised that she didn't go mouldy.

Congratulations froubylou on your pregnancy!

Midwives that work in baby friendly accredited hospitals have to talk to you about breastfeeding and its benefits. There are also very strict rules about formula advertising and education. They aren't even allowed to have education sessions on making up formula. They are policies that come from above and a midwife has to follow those rules.

I hope that the information your midwife had to give you was presented in a calm and reasonable fashion! And I hope you took it into consideration when making your feeding choice. And then I hope you choose to feed your baby however works best for you, and that you never have to defend or explain your decision to anyone else, because that is YOUR choice. And I hope you are supported with that decision when you are in hospital and once you return home. That is genuinely what (the VAST majority) of health professionals want. And they get genuinely upset to hear that women are scared to tell them that they want to formula feed because they are scared of the reaction they will receive. And (again the majority) of healthcare professionals will provide you non-judgemental support. Because that's what ever woman deserves.

Not all midwives are perfect, just like not all doctors, teachers, judges, police etc are either. The vast majority do their job well. But they probably also get disheartened at unhelpful comments also. There ARE benefits to BF, so its upsetting to hear that just dismissed by people on forums who are unreasonably histrionic! At the same time, (reasonable) midwives wouldn't harp on about BF benefits when a mum has already made her decision and is formula feeding.

Hi wordfactory. I feel very sorry indeed for that mum. Tongue tie is difficult and milk supply issues are horrible to go through. They are all things that can be resolved but it does take time. And I dont know any midwife who wouldn't support her if she wanted to FF, mix feed, express or a combination of all three.