aibu to be sick of seeing bfing vs ffeeding debates?

[ImNotABarbieGirl]

That's it really. I've just turned the tv on and AGAIN...there it is! It just infuriates me.

I still bfeed dd (22 months) I already live with friends and family making me feel uncomfetable, ignoreing little funny jokes/comments about it. I really do not need to turn the television on and hear some woman spouting how its disgusting etc on national television.

It annoys me moreso (sp?) That it is never a fair debate. It is always two extremest type people who just want to point out how wrong, disgusting etc the other party is.

Surely most people have access to information and support out there to make an informed choice about what's best for them. So what is the point of all this then? It seems its just another way for us to belittle eachotherparenting choices


Please excuse grammer/spelling

[DropYourSword]

Sorry, that last sentence was meant to read I don't know WHY any midwife wouldn't support her etc

[wordfactory]

Perhaps that Mum was unlucky enough to find herself supported by someone like mini...

[DropYourSword]

I'm not sure, i think mini is very passionate about breastfeeding but definitely shouldn't be to the point of starving a baby if there was no milk supply?!

[Lazyjaney]

Why is it only when its regarding BF that people seem to positively rejoice in shooting the messenger. There's plenty of evidence out there to show BF is best for babys

Except that it isn't - it's very conflicted, usually conflated and sometimes deliberately disingenuous.

What research says, in summary, is that in the first few months Bf is beneficial to a small extent over Ff. After that - in the first world - there is minimal discernible benefit.

Any early benefits are gone by c 3-4 yo, the nurseries of the first world are not filled with smart, strapping Bf kids and weedy sickly Ff ones, you cannot tell the difference by then.

The real, huge benefit of Bf is in developing countries where hygiene is poor, the longer you can do it the better.

[DropYourSword]

I'm not sure I'd agree with you that there aren't lasting benefits, but even if there is only a small benefit to breastfeeding, surely thats still important?

[froubylou]

Thank you Drop.

I know how I'm planning on feeding my baby when he arrives. Fingers crossed it works out OK. And I hope that I do get any support I need. And I'm pretty sure that I will.

And if I have to resort to plan B I know that it will be for the right reasons for me, baby and the rest of my family. In the cold light of being almost 23 weeks PG I can tell myself that I will be fine with whatever happens. And I won't beat myself up over it.

With a newborn baby, lack of sleep and a massive overload of hormones and emotions who know's how I will feel if I switch to FF. I know when I was BF then mixed then FF DD 9 years ago I didn't get much support on either choice. Formula was offered in hospital (in little glass bottles already with a nipple of the end all sealed up like a little present lol) and the B/Fing support M/W came around once a day and looked after a ward of about 30 mums. Not enough time to talk either before or after about the benefits or offer much help.

Once I was home it was pretty much the same story to be honest.

I have learnt more from reading this forum about problems, issues and success's that I did when trying to BF my baby last time around. So feel more prepared than ever. The internet is a wonderful thing that enables many people to interact with strangers and get advice and support in a 1000 different ways.

For those people who are trying to help people from certain backgrounds or age groups then I would personally suggest some sort of forum based support. Most young people do have internet access of some kind and with limited funds it may be a cost effective way to reach a wider audience than leaflets and so on. Social networking is a valuable tool, especially for certain age groups.

In an ideal world they would use Mumsnet, or some of the other B/Fing support websites or groups. However I think some of them may be quite daunting for a younger mum. I know some of the mums my sisters age group (early 20's) from a certain background would feel they couldn't ask anything and I think that they would perhaps suffer at the hands of some of the more extreme members on here.

Worth a thought anyway. And it could be linked to certain organisations such as SureStart or the HV service so real professionals could get involved and offer additional support if needed. And there is the advantage to the users that they can ask questions or discuss problems in confidence without feeling they are being judged.

My Dsis is also PG and I will be interested to see what her experiance through the NHS maternity service will be like in comparrision to mine. We are both under the same GP, the same trust and will presumably be offered the same services. However her experiance so far has been different to mine already. And she is not even 12 weeks yet. There is 11 years between us and a similar age gap between our first children.

[hamdangle]

Midwives that work in baby friendly accredited hospitals have to talk to you about breastfeeding and its benefits. There are also very strict rules about formula advertising and education. They aren't even allowed to have education sessions on making up formula. They are policies that come from above and a midwife has to follow those rules.

This right here is what bothers me. If all this shouting was about saving the lives of vulnerable children then how can the above be seen as anything other than very very dangerous?

Yes, it is statistical fact babies who are formula fed are more likely to be admitted to hospital in the early stages. Most of these problems are not caused by the formula though but by parents making the feeds up incorrectly. Instead of trying to improve the situation by educating parents, midwives and health visitors refuse to give sessions on making up feeds because it will supposedly contradict their message.

The majority of women formula feed after two weeks. For some it is because they can't or don't feel that they can for many many reasons. But lots of women also don't want to. This is the 21st century, we are a developed country and it is our choice as women what we want to do with our bodies. Yet the government has decided that it will not support us to do this.

If you agree that it is a women's right to decide what to do with their own body then you must agree that it is wrong bit to provide that women with the same access to support in her feeding as a woman who chooses to breastfeed.

If you don't agree that a women had a choice and the needs of the baby come first then you still must agree that parents should still have access to correct information about how to make up formula in case the mother is unable to feed so that she can ensure that the child is still fed safely.

[AntoinetteCosway]

wordfactory is spot on.

[Minifingers]

lazyjane

"Except that it isn't - it's very conflicted, usually conflated and sometimes deliberately disingenuous."

Except that you don't really know this as you haven't read the evidence UK recommendations are based on. You revealed that early on in the thread. (unless you've given since given references to specific studies being used by the NHS to support breastfeeding policy that don't control for demographic factors and draw heavily on data from developing countries, and I've missed it. Have you?)

[Minifingers]

"What research says, in summary, is that in the first few months Bf is beneficial to a small extent over Ff."

Ok lazyjane - this is from the latest UNICEF commissioned report, undertaken by researchers at St Georges NHS Trust. This is what their review of the evidence suggests.

Shall we leave it up to readers here to decide whether they think these benefits are 'minimal' or 'small'? The focus is on savings to the NHS, but it puts some figures on the numbers of hospital admissions and serious morbidity related to not breastfeeding. Note - it only looks at illnesses for which there is very strong evidence of benefit from breastfeeding.

This is from a report from October 2012:

"Calculations from a handful of illnesses, where the evidence is strongest, show that moderate increases in breastfeeding could see potential annual savings to the NHS of approximately £40million per year.

However, this figure is likely to be only the tip of the iceberg when the full range of conditions affected by breastfeeding are taken into account.

For diseases where evidence was strongest, the authors produced quantitative economic models around five illnesses (breast cancer in the mother, and gastroenteritis, respiratory infections, middle ear infections and necrotising enterecolitis (NEC) in the baby), showing how moderate increases in breastfeeding would translate into cost savings for the NHS:

➢ If half those mothers who currently do not breastfeed were to do so for up to 18 months over their life, there would be:

• 865 fewer cases of breast cancer
  
• With cost savings to the NHS of more than £21million
  
• Improved quality of life equating to more than £10million over the lifetime of each annual cohort of first-time mothers
  

➢ If 45 per cent of babies were exclusively breastfed for four months, and if 75 per cent of babies in neonatal units were breastfed at discharge, each year there would be:

• 3,285 fewer babies hospitalised with gastroenteritis and 10,637 fewer GP consultations, saving more than £3.6million
  
• 5,916 fewer babies hospitalised with respiratory illness, and 22,248 fewer GP consultations, saving around £6.7million
  
• 21,045 fewer GP visits for ear infection, saving £750,000
  
• 361 fewer cases of the potentially fatal disease necrotising enterocolitis, saving more than £6million"

[DropYourSword]

frouby I think its an excellent idea to use social networking and forum based support for parents, specifically young mums who are likely to feel comfortable using that kind of media. I would just be really concerned it would turn into a huge dog fight like this!

[DropYourSword]

OMG Mini - you're even starting to piss me off now, and I agree with what you are saying!

[SilverApples]

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

mini

Lets hope you never find yourself in a position where breast feeding doesn't work out. Maybe meeting "yourself" in terms of support might give you a chance to re think your attitude and realise that your "if you had breast fed your baby wouldn't be ill, this Is your fault" approach is nothing short of appalling. As if babies have read all this and understand to latch on and feed like a dream.

[DropYourSword]

hamdangle just to clarify they aren't allowed to do a group education session on making formula. They are allowed to support a parent making up that formula and help her with it. Although I have heard some lactation consultants say that its not necessary as there are clear instructions on the tin. While that is true, I don't think that's a helpful attitude to have!

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree its every woman's right to choose, and only she has the right to her own body.

[Bamboobambino]

Mini, instead of endlessly cutting and pasting articles with conclusions to support your views, how about going back to the raw data for some of these studies and looking hard at how they are designed, and the conclusions drawn. Take into account the patient groups, study sizes assumptions and the way some of this 'economic modelling' is done.
While you are at it, it's worth reading the book below which presents a good critique of some of these studies:
www.amazon.co.uk/Bottled-Up-Babies-Motherhood-Shouldnt/dp/0520270231?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21#reader_0520270231

When you have taken a balanced review of all the research in this area, not just the stuff that supports your own view, then I may give more credence to what you are saying.
Once again, I agree with the pro BF message from a public health point of view. I just respect the right of an individual to review the raw data themselves and take a balanced decision based on their own circumstances and assessment of the pros/cons. It is clear that numerous professionals in this thread have done just this, including a breastfeeding counselor. You cannot seem to accept this and have resorted to insulting individuals earlier on in the thread.
I take real issue with the way people like you go about ramming your message down people's throats. I really hope you don't take this approach if you work in an NHS care setting. It's wrong and counterproductive.

[SpecialAgentCuntSnake]

I think when it gets to the point you're suggesting someone is mentally ill because they weren't breastfed, you're overly invested.

I found that comment extremely hurtful, please don't speak to new mums like that.

[theodorakisses]

I am a bit confused by this thread, why not listen to people's experiences and opinions rather than copy and paste?
If you are interested, here is mine: I ff because I wanted to, I didn't feel comfortable at the thought of bf and didn't want to. Here are my points:

1. I do not need to be educated about the benefits of bf.
   
2. I didn't ff because of lack of support, I simply refused to consider it.
   
3. I do not feel guilty.
   
4. Healthy reasonably normal family, no diseases, intelligent and happy.
   
5. Not everyone feels so strongly about this, I am not denying there are benefits but don't think about it all day.

[SpecialAgentCuntSnake]

Theo Exact same reasons my mum didn't BF.

[Crowler]

I suspect that one of the reasons that BF proponents become "radicalized" is because of the way in which FF is normalized in the UK.

[theodorakisses]

Crowler, maybe not everyone doesn't think it isn't normal to ff. Feeding babies is feeding babies, however you choose to do it.
How you can say that anyway when there are so many laws (quite rightly) to protect women who choose to bf n public places unlike many other countries. It wasn't something I wanted to do, I don't mind how other people live and it doesn't offend me to see either bf or ff in public, like many people it doesn't really register.
I will never understand why people with extremely strong feelings about this are not interested in listening to the actual people rather than making it political.

[Minifingers]

I'm not an epidemiologist or a doctor.

I read the papers, but haven't got the skills, time or resources to do a critical review of all the best available evidence. Which is why I rely on information from UNICEF, the WHO, the NHS, the RCM and the Cochrane Index, where panels of specialists are paid to do reviews of the evidence and summarise their findings for ordinary members of the public like myself. Lazyjane, on the other hand, who does claim to be a health professional, is clearly cherry picking studies and reviews of evidence that would not be considered suitable as a basis for NHS recommendations on infant feeding because they include research done in developing countries, and don't control for important confounders. Incidentally, why am I the only person who's challenged her basing her view on studies which don't control for confounders when there are plenty of studies which do?


*They're also most likely to be exposed to prenatal and postnatal smoking.

I once asked my mum if she BFed my DB and I, she didn't because she didn't want too.

We both are fine"

17% of mothers smoke while pregnant. You can't tell which babies were born to smokers by looking at them or by looking at individual health outcomes. (though you can sometimes tell by looking at the placenta!). Rationalising the decision not to breastfeed by saying you can't see any difference in breastfed children in my view has about the same validity of rationalising smoking by pointing out that children born to smokers are generally fine (they are) and that even when they're not 'fine' it's impossible to prove a cause and effect relationship with smoking.


"Not being aggressive, but are there actual studies to prove this statement? I really want to read it if there is, as I'd like to become a BF peer supporter."

Don't worry - I don't bite! It's a sensible question. My data on demographics and infant feeding comes from the 5 yearly 'Infant Feeding Survey' done by the department of health. Usually involves a sample of about 8000 women. Here: here


I really detest people who militantly assume they have the right to tell others what to do with their bodies be that breast feeding

I don't tell anyone how they should feed their babies. I don't think anyone should do this either. I think there should be free, full and informed debate on this issue, which is why I'm taking part in this thread.

"If the answer is to make the lives of mothers and children better here in the uk, then it's difficult to see how shouting endless stats on an internet forum will help!"

How else can I defend the view that breastfeeding has significant benefits for babies if I'm not 'allowed' to refer to the evidence?

[Minifingers]

"I will never understand why people with extremely strong feelings about this are not interested in listening to the actual people rather than making it political."

Let me help you.

Some of us see this as a public health issue. It involves the health and welfare of the weakest and most vulnerable members of society, who have no voice to advocate for themselves. It also involves the interests of big business.

If you want to understand more read this:
here

You can actually read the preface of this book on Amazon, which has a subheading "Why breastfeeding is political'.

In relation to the role of health professionals - one things the book mentions which is really striking is this: that the more contact women have with health professionals in the 20th century, the less they breastfed. The big 'cull' of breastfeeding in the UK happened when concerted efforts were made to have all women give birth in hospital in the 1960's, and home birth started to dwindle fast. Lazyjane - I'm sure in your own way you have worked hard to ensure that your clients feel breastfeeding is unimportant. Well done. You're continuing a fine NHS tradition.

It's a good read and I strongly recommend it to those of you of the 'I can't understand why anyone cares how a baby is fed' persuasion.

[theodorakisses]

Thats my point, I DON'T NEED YOUR HELP.
You don't sound very nice, not having read all of the googley posts, I am not sure if yu work in healthcare. I sincerely hope if you do you manage to contain your attitude towards all the stupid people who have babies. Bonkers thread as usual

[theodorakisses]

Is anyone actually denying the health benefits? I am not but I don't care. The benefits of ff for me were higher.