aibu to be sick of seeing bfing vs ffeeding debates?

[ImNotABarbieGirl]

That's it really. I've just turned the tv on and AGAIN...there it is! It just infuriates me.

I still bfeed dd (22 months) I already live with friends and family making me feel uncomfetable, ignoreing little funny jokes/comments about it. I really do not need to turn the television on and hear some woman spouting how its disgusting etc on national television.

It annoys me moreso (sp?) That it is never a fair debate. It is always two extremest type people who just want to point out how wrong, disgusting etc the other party is.

Surely most people have access to information and support out there to make an informed choice about what's best for them. So what is the point of all this then? It seems its just another way for us to belittle eachotherparenting choices


Please excuse grammer/spelling

[DropYourSword]

bonsoir That's would actually be a really interesting point to look into further. Personally I think it might be more likely to be due the possibility that general healthcare and medical knowledge improves all the time. Does anyone know when formula first really became available?

[MoominsYonisAreScary]

" it involves the health and wellfare of the weakest most vulnerable members of society, who have no voice to advocate for themselves"

And you know better than the mother right?

No wonder those who ff get pissed off having to listen to that crap

[Bonsoir]

I don't think that enough information is put out on the terrible infant mortality rates when breast milk was the only means of feeding babies. Formula is, for a significant minority if babies, a life saver. No one need feel guilty about FF.

[cory]

Crowler's rice feed analogy makes a lot of sense.

What would have helped me would have been to have been able to say to myself "look here, there is something different about your baby, she is not the norm and you need to just forget about the norm".

[cory]

brettgirl2 Wed 21-Aug-13 22:17:51
"my dd ended up in hospital because she was breastfed......."

Mine too.



Which underlines the point that every woman who makes a decision has to make a decision about her individual baby, not about the health of the nation in general.

I, as it so happens, was thinking more about the principle in general (and my sense of superiority as an immigrant from one of the major breastfeeding nations in the world). So I made the wrong decision.

[Bonsoir]

I liked breast feeding because it made me very slim and cost nothing and I had the means to stop my baby crying at any time.

[SpecialAgentCuntSnake]

Haha yes. I stole it off a twunt who declared MNers 'not vipers, but cunt snakes.' Was too funny to resist.

[DropYourSword]

cuntsnake

[SpecialAgentCuntSnake]

Thank you for the link Mini, I have bookmarked it for later.

Just want to defend DM, she didn't smoke during pregnancy, she never has.

Childish need to protect mummy

[theodorakisses]

crowler, you sound lovely and very normal

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

And you failed to address why ff stats are so high compared to bf. even if you convinced thousands of woman to try it theres still a huge amount of people who it's impossible for. Adoptive parents, foster children, single dads, children with certain disabilities and medical conditions who need high calories food through tubes. The increase in ivf couples- leading to higher rates of multiple births. Breast feeding quads must be nearly impossible especially as they are always born premature.

Or maybe these people should just not have kids. Or maybe babies should be left with abusive parents cos get at Least they get breast fed who cares what drugs go through the milk to the baby.

Would you stand over these people and think that it's their fault the babies are sick cos they weren't breasted and people may copy them and choose not to breast feed after seeing how easy formula can be.

Whatever you think of it mini formula can and does save lives.

[myrubberduck]

Minifingers

"First off - it concludes that breastfeeding protects against obesity, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, and it is associated with better cognitive function in later childhood. Yes - the benefits are 'modest', but that's exactly what you'd expect given that the VAST majority of the studies included in this analysis include in the 'breastfeeding' arm of the trial, mainly mixed fed babies, a good number of whom will actually be predominantly ff, and babies who are classified as 'breastfed' on the strength of less than 4 weeks of mixed feeding. And yet, bizarrely, studies STILL find differences in blood pressure in children who are likely to only have had a minimal amount of breastfeeding YEARS down the line!"

Its not enough for you to entirely misrepresent the conclusions of the recent WHO meta study, you have to go scrabbling around for possible reasons as to why the study did not find even MORE than you say (wrongly) that it did which was;

Cholesterol - no effect
Blood pressure - no effect
Diabetes- Evidence conflicting and inconclusive.
Obesity - Evidence conflicting but probably no effect of any significance.
IQ - "Modest" effect (2 points).

I am not saying this study is right or wrong but the point is that not only have you clearly misunderstood it, you seem to think that is saying the opposite of what it actually says

Biased would be a kind description , Crazy would be more accurate however.

[Crowler]

theodorakisses - I think this is probably an online vs RL distinction. I probably fall on the extreme BF side of the debate (though not extremely vocal) - but this part of me really only exists online. For example, of all the friends I have made post-babies, I don't believe I know if any of them BF or FF. It's not an issue.

People who approach this as a public health debate take the view that if it breastfeeding, rather than FF, was normalized - then more women would BF. Here's an example: we don't consider it normal to give tiny babies rice cereal, it's not good for them. The mother assumes she won't give the baby rice cereal until much later (if at all). Then the baby develops symptoms of reflux, so she consults her doctor and introduces rice cereal as a treatment for reflux.

I think it would make more sense for formula to be the exception like rice cereal in the example above. The reasons for formula don't have to be strictly medical; maybe the mother is simply not coping, whatever. But the point is that breastfeeding is normalized & the mother assumes she'll BF and doesn't really consider the alternative until she must. Not because anyone is telling her to do this, it's just a cultural norm.

In this case the political debate is effectively killed, and feeding does become simply feeding (as you suggest). The reason it's political is because of the for-profit formula industry and the inroads they've made.

[theodorakisses]

It's a good read and I strongly recommend it to those of you of the 'I can't understand why anyone cares how a baby is fed' persuasion.

Mini, I am going to google lots of crap and link it to you on the "mind your own business you are not cleverer than everyone else" persuasion.

[KissMeHardy]

ini - Lets hope you never find yourself in a position where breast feeding doesn't work out

My son was lactose intolerant. No matter how hard I tried, and I tried desperately hard, I could not produce Soya Milk.

Stop banging on Mini and think of the rest of us who cannot follow your dyed in the wool ways.

[theodorakisses]

Is anyone actually denying the health benefits? I am not but I don't care. The benefits of ff for me were higher.

[theodorakisses]

Thats my point, I DON'T NEED YOUR HELP.
You don't sound very nice, not having read all of the googley posts, I am not sure if yu work in healthcare. I sincerely hope if you do you manage to contain your attitude towards all the stupid people who have babies. Bonkers thread as usual

[Minifingers]

"I will never understand why people with extremely strong feelings about this are not interested in listening to the actual people rather than making it political."

Let me help you.

Some of us see this as a public health issue. It involves the health and welfare of the weakest and most vulnerable members of society, who have no voice to advocate for themselves. It also involves the interests of big business.

If you want to understand more read this:
here

You can actually read the preface of this book on Amazon, which has a subheading "Why breastfeeding is political'.

In relation to the role of health professionals - one things the book mentions which is really striking is this: that the more contact women have with health professionals in the 20th century, the less they breastfed. The big 'cull' of breastfeeding in the UK happened when concerted efforts were made to have all women give birth in hospital in the 1960's, and home birth started to dwindle fast. Lazyjane - I'm sure in your own way you have worked hard to ensure that your clients feel breastfeeding is unimportant. Well done. You're continuing a fine NHS tradition.

It's a good read and I strongly recommend it to those of you of the 'I can't understand why anyone cares how a baby is fed' persuasion.

[Minifingers]

I'm not an epidemiologist or a doctor.

I read the papers, but haven't got the skills, time or resources to do a critical review of all the best available evidence. Which is why I rely on information from UNICEF, the WHO, the NHS, the RCM and the Cochrane Index, where panels of specialists are paid to do reviews of the evidence and summarise their findings for ordinary members of the public like myself. Lazyjane, on the other hand, who does claim to be a health professional, is clearly cherry picking studies and reviews of evidence that would not be considered suitable as a basis for NHS recommendations on infant feeding because they include research done in developing countries, and don't control for important confounders. Incidentally, why am I the only person who's challenged her basing her view on studies which don't control for confounders when there are plenty of studies which do?


*They're also most likely to be exposed to prenatal and postnatal smoking.

I once asked my mum if she BFed my DB and I, she didn't because she didn't want too.

We both are fine"

17% of mothers smoke while pregnant. You can't tell which babies were born to smokers by looking at them or by looking at individual health outcomes. (though you can sometimes tell by looking at the placenta!). Rationalising the decision not to breastfeed by saying you can't see any difference in breastfed children in my view has about the same validity of rationalising smoking by pointing out that children born to smokers are generally fine (they are) and that even when they're not 'fine' it's impossible to prove a cause and effect relationship with smoking.


"Not being aggressive, but are there actual studies to prove this statement? I really want to read it if there is, as I'd like to become a BF peer supporter."

Don't worry - I don't bite! It's a sensible question. My data on demographics and infant feeding comes from the 5 yearly 'Infant Feeding Survey' done by the department of health. Usually involves a sample of about 8000 women. Here: here


I really detest people who militantly assume they have the right to tell others what to do with their bodies be that breast feeding

I don't tell anyone how they should feed their babies. I don't think anyone should do this either. I think there should be free, full and informed debate on this issue, which is why I'm taking part in this thread.

"If the answer is to make the lives of mothers and children better here in the uk, then it's difficult to see how shouting endless stats on an internet forum will help!"

How else can I defend the view that breastfeeding has significant benefits for babies if I'm not 'allowed' to refer to the evidence?

[theodorakisses]

Crowler, maybe not everyone doesn't think it isn't normal to ff. Feeding babies is feeding babies, however you choose to do it.
How you can say that anyway when there are so many laws (quite rightly) to protect women who choose to bf n public places unlike many other countries. It wasn't something I wanted to do, I don't mind how other people live and it doesn't offend me to see either bf or ff in public, like many people it doesn't really register.
I will never understand why people with extremely strong feelings about this are not interested in listening to the actual people rather than making it political.

[Crowler]

I suspect that one of the reasons that BF proponents become "radicalized" is because of the way in which FF is normalized in the UK.

[SpecialAgentCuntSnake]

Theo Exact same reasons my mum didn't BF.

[theodorakisses]

I am a bit confused by this thread, why not listen to people's experiences and opinions rather than copy and paste?
If you are interested, here is mine: I ff because I wanted to, I didn't feel comfortable at the thought of bf and didn't want to. Here are my points:

1. I do not need to be educated about the benefits of bf.
   
2. I didn't ff because of lack of support, I simply refused to consider it.
   
3. I do not feel guilty.
   
4. Healthy reasonably normal family, no diseases, intelligent and happy.
   
5. Not everyone feels so strongly about this, I am not denying there are benefits but don't think about it all day.

[SpecialAgentCuntSnake]

I think when it gets to the point you're suggesting someone is mentally ill because they weren't breastfed, you're overly invested.

I found that comment extremely hurtful, please don't speak to new mums like that.

[Bamboobambino]

Mini, instead of endlessly cutting and pasting articles with conclusions to support your views, how about going back to the raw data for some of these studies and looking hard at how they are designed, and the conclusions drawn. Take into account the patient groups, study sizes assumptions and the way some of this 'economic modelling' is done.
While you are at it, it's worth reading the book below which presents a good critique of some of these studies:
www.amazon.co.uk/Bottled-Up-Babies-Motherhood-Shouldnt/dp/0520270231?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21#reader_0520270231

When you have taken a balanced review of all the research in this area, not just the stuff that supports your own view, then I may give more credence to what you are saying.
Once again, I agree with the pro BF message from a public health point of view. I just respect the right of an individual to review the raw data themselves and take a balanced decision based on their own circumstances and assessment of the pros/cons. It is clear that numerous professionals in this thread have done just this, including a breastfeeding counselor. You cannot seem to accept this and have resorted to insulting individuals earlier on in the thread.
I take real issue with the way people like you go about ramming your message down people's throats. I really hope you don't take this approach if you work in an NHS care setting. It's wrong and counterproductive.