So my quiet town had a visit from our traveller 'friends' this week and

[AndThatsWhatIThinkOfYou]

They wonder why people are so against them setting up camp where ever they please.

They arrived last Wednesday on a football field with a park and caused a whole load of trouble, for example, going to the petrol station handing over euros, being told they won't accept euros as payment, they simple got in their vans and drove of.

Made a visit to our local Sainsburys got caught shoplifting, were locked in until police were called.

Local children playing on park got beaten up with sticks by the traveller children.

And to top it all of 3 vans pulling up outside a local pub, very busy, dropping their trousers and all three disgusting men casually took a shit one by one on the pub doorstep. Got in there vans and drove of.

Then left the football field and park in an absolute mess. Rubbish everywhere.

Each incident police were called but nothing has been done.

So AIBU to wonder why travellers think this behavior is acceptable? and why can't anything be done to stop it?

What is stopping the travellers from BUYING permanent sites? You know, with their own money?

we had travellers living illegally in a field in a lane under a mile from where I live. there is also an inadequate, very full permanent site about 5 miles away on the outskirts of nearest town. This site has a reputation - there have been several drugs raids, arrests, fires etc in the past.

BUT the group living illegally in a field (belonging to someone they knew so not trespassing) kept it tidy, built a few lean-to sheds etc and eventually applied for permission to stay there. They were refused - because of a petition by local NIMBYs. "It would ruin the village, There must be somewhere better for the site, we don't want more traffic/noise/mess etc etc ". These people had lived there peacefully and tidily for 2 years and were sent on their way. It makes me sad that so many of my nice, middle class, "tolerant" neighbours are so anti-travellers.

How do the "incompetent Police" stop someone mid-shit?

The small family travller site near me (and not far from the OP's town, if I recognise it correctly) is well maintained and their kids go to the village school. They don't have any problems locally. The illegal encampments are the ones where the trouble happens, as in the OP's town.

Being a "traveller" is a lifestyle choice.

Yes of course it is, just like being black, being a Roma, being Asian is a choice they should all just choose to be white and settled like me and get on with it.

Travellers are an ethnic group and an ethnic minority at that in the UK. They did not wake up one morning and decide to travel, they were born into that culture which developed over generations.

'Force them into settling down'? That's disgusting.

Why is it disgusting?

They can travel all they want if they do it legally, at their own expense.

No, I'm afraid there are no good reasons for unthinking prejudice. Be outraged and upset about specific actions performed by particular individuals. But being "anti-traveler" is simply bigotry.

'They also feel the national curriculum we have isn't relevant to them and I believe we (the education establishment) have a responsibility to change that view.'

That is not done for any other group, how on Earth are they any more special?

And why don't they ever go to normal caravan sites? Are they not allowed to?

I mean, they want to travel, lots of folks who are retired do, too, so they buy a touring caravan or motor home and go from holiday park to holiday park or campsite to campsite all summer.

Why don't travellers? Or could it be they don't want to pay site/pitch fees?

Ok TabithaStephens I'm done.

phantomnamechanger 90% of Traveller planning applications are rejected compared to 20% nationally so I'm not surprised to hear about your local group at all.

The police certainly need more back up to act when the anti-social travellers (accepting that that isn't all travellers) cause disruption and far worse to other people's lives.

No group, whatever the group, should be allowed to live to different laws from everyone else including laws regarding public decency, child abuse, threatening behaviour and littering and endangering public health.

I'm not sure what the rules are in Ireland but if the problem has been improved there them maybe we should look to adopt similar laws.

TS - if you read my post there was NO GOOD REASON to assume the people who had been living in our midst for 2 years without any trouble at all would suddenly change into antisocial thugs once they were granted permission to stay. They obviously took pride in keeping their patch tidy and enjoyed the peace and quiet just like the people with houses nearby. They were very near the village church which remained open and without theft/incident the whole time. They kept themselves to themselves , probably very well aware of the prejudice of some people.

People were worried about it based on OTHER STORIES FROM OTHER SITES - that's like not wanting a black family next door because you were once mugged by a black youth. ie prejudiced and plain unreasonable.

blueemerald

Planning laws mean they can't buy land to live on. They don't want to live in brick houses.

Well, tough sausage, frankly. I don't want to pay taxes and go to work, but that's the world we live in.

And, I believe, a cycle of depression and hopelessness tied with self esteem so low you can't imagine "stops" them obeying the law.

Extraordinary. The mental contortions you are going through to try to justify criminality are extraordinary. "Low self esteem made me do it, guvnor."

Education is tricky, many parents suffered horrendously at school and feel that their children might experience the same (many do, I've witnessed it). They also feel the national curriculum we have isn't relevant to them and I believe we (the education establishment) have a responsibility to change that view.

So it's all someone else's fault that travellers are the way they are? They have absolutely no responsibility for themselves?

Look, we're functioning, thinking people. But you seem to be telling me that travellers aren't and they're reactionary, primitive, incapable of living within modern society. Why aren't you treating them like functioning adults instead of like children?

As for the issues around anti social behaviour compare them with members of the settled community in the same socio economic circumstances, poverty, lack of education, lack of employment, addiction etc and I am willing to bet they actually come out way, way on top in terms of societal behaviour.

The laws of the land are set up for settled communities and do not consider nor facilitate their culture so they do not respect them. TBH it would be the same as me taking issue with the fact that women wear burkas in other cultures which I absolutely do and not respecting the laws in these countries which I do not except it does not present such an issue because I was not born there.

What do travellers think their children should be taught at school?

expatinscotland Are you joking? There have been monumental changes to make the curriculum (certainly for English, the subject I have experience of) more relevant and appealing to black and Asian children, also to make it more appealing to boys where girls statistically have always done better. This is an incredible shift from the dead, white, male authors studied previously, and, I believe, still a work in progress.

I didn't actually say the curriculum should be changed just that relationships need to be rebuilt between schools and disenfranchised communities to show how our curriculum is relevant to them. Change thier view, not the curriculum.

The national curriculum has been adapted to be more inclusive towards other minority groups, expat.

Your view are bigoted and repugnant Tabitha. Travellers are a recognised ethnic minority and are entitled to maintain their travelling lifestyle if they wish. It is the responsibility of the state to provide adequate facilities for them, and it is the responsibility of travellers to abide by the laws of the state. Those who break the law should be subject to criminal proceedings. But the persecution you are advocating would be shameful and disgraceful.

I would like to see anyone try and do that on the doorstep of a pub near where I once lived. The owner and his four sons were all huge and his brother who also had four sons lived across the lane. Lovely chaps, all of them, but they wouldn't be calling the police if someone shit on their pub doorstep.

I'm really torn on this one. In social studies, Travellers were always used as examples of prejudice and the behaviour of the settled community was used to illustrate the seven stages of racism towards travellers!

So the message I took was that it is unacceptable to bitch and gripe about travellers, no matter what they do. If they committed a crime, report the crime and then let the police deal with it. Most crime is carried out by non-travellers! If their behaviour offends your delicate sensibilities well, I guess, be grateful that you've had a privileged start in life and the worst thing you've had to put up with was a rowdy scene at the garage.

so, any new traveller I meet I regard as the ambassador for him or herself only .

Traveller women still get the shitty end of the stick in my opinion. I have a lot of sympathy and admiration for traveller women. Although sometimes wariness as well.

Persecution? You mean expecting them to abide by the laws of the land, the same as anyone else?

No-one is stopping them maintaining their travelling lifestyle. But it is their lifestyle choice, therefore it must be done at their expense and within the law.

Another person who has never had a pleasant encounter with travellers. My experiences have thankfully been few in number but have all ended with threats and / or antisocial behaviour from the travellers involved.

I don't buy into this stuff about 'it's their culture, live and let live'. We're not tolerating forced marriages or FGM just because it's part of a culture. Child welfare is more important in those cases. So why are we tolerating a culture of depriving kids of education, healthcare and opportunity to live a different life? Of allowing kids to drive without license / tax / insurance? Of normalising marriage and childbearing at 16-17 years of age? I've seen other kids pulled out of schools and dragged all over the country - but in those cases social services have been involved 'for the welfare of the child'.

A lot of people defending travellers most vociferously have never actually encountered them IME.

Fair enough then. No one answered my other question: why don't they book in for established camp and holiday park sites then? That's what other people do when they fancy travelling around in a caravan.