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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

So my quiet town had a visit from our traveller 'friends' this week and

885 replies

AndThatsWhatIThinkOfYou · 15/08/2013 13:20

They wonder why people are so against them setting up camp where ever they please.

They arrived last Wednesday on a football field with a park and caused a whole load of trouble, for example, going to the petrol station handing over euros, being told they won't accept euros as payment, they simple got in their vans and drove of.

Made a visit to our local Sainsburys got caught shoplifting, were locked in until police were called.

Local children playing on park got beaten up with sticks by the traveller children.

And to top it all of 3 vans pulling up outside a local pub, very busy, dropping their trousers and all three disgusting men casually took a shit one by one on the pub doorstep. Got in there vans and drove of.

Then left the football field and park in an absolute mess. Rubbish everywhere.

Each incident police were called but nothing has been done.

So AIBU to wonder why travellers think this behavior is acceptable? and why can't anything be done to stop it?

OP posts:
AmberLeaf · 17/08/2013 12:51

^Because not ALL police are racist?
Because it's a generalisation?
Because only SOME police have been accused of racism?^

Do you understand what institutionalised racism means? pointing out that there is institutionalised racism within the police is a fact. Even the police as a body admits that!

Same objections that keep cropping up on this thread wrt travellers?

Yet the generalising OP still stands while someone gets deleted for stating a fact.

stubbornstains · 17/08/2013 12:53

It's really welcome to see the contributions on here from posters who are travellers, or who have some knowledge of the travellers' way of life. Hardly anybody in this debate (me included) seems to know that much about traveller culture, and I think we need to know more in order to break down boundaries.

And for those who think it's easy buying your own land and living on it- well, you can be as squeaky clean, friendly and non-confrontational as you like, but you're unlikely to get planning permission, traveller or not. All it takes is one objection from one NIMBY in his £400,000 house half a mile away, and you're toast. The system is that stacked in favour of the settled home owner Sad.

BoneyBackJefferson · 17/08/2013 13:19

MrsAMerrick
"The Travellers explained that they were on their way to join a travelling fair"

So not "travellers" as such but showmen.

One on my biggest concerns about the term "traveller" is that it has become all encompassing, A showman is not an Irish traveller is not a Romany gypsy etc.

CatThiefKeith · 17/08/2013 13:23

Grabbing is not part of most travellers culture.... I know and have worked for/with showmen and Roma, and it is not something they practise.

Maybe it is a Parvee thing? Interesting link here

Al0uise · 17/08/2013 13:27

You are highly like to get planning permission if you stick to the guidelines but rocking up on arable land or green belt is asking for trouble.

MNHQ
RowanMumsnet · 17/08/2013 13:52

Hello

As KateMumsnet said earlier, we're sorry if we've caused upset by allowing this thread to stand. We like to think we take a fairly strong stand on blanket anti-Traveller prejudice, but the line between people describing their personal experiences (on the one hand) and making blanket statements (on the other) is not always easily drawn.

We've allowed the OP to stand because it is, in the main, a description of that poster's personal experience. We do see your point, AmberLeaf, that the final sentence reads as a blanket statement, but within the context of an OP that clearly describes a personal experience, we thought it would be a little heavy-handed to delete the entire thread (which was already a long and lively discussion when we got to it) for what may have just been clumsy drafting in the final sentence.

But again, these are fine judgements and we're sorry to have disappointed some of you on this one.

TimeOfChange - we owe you an apology. Your post was deleted not because of reference to institutional racism in the police force (we make a point of not deleting sentiments that are endorsed by senior members of the judiciary Wink), but because we read it as accusing another poster of that same racism - but we see now you referred to the other posters' posts, not to the poster themselves, so we will reinstate that now.

(Just FYI all - we do deem 'you are a racist' a personal attack, even if you think it's true.)

edam · 17/08/2013 13:57

is 'that comment is racist' a personal attack? Just if someone is saying racist things e.g. 'all travellers are " then surely posters should be able to point that out?

MNHQ
RowanMumsnet · 17/08/2013 14:05

@edam

is 'that comment is racist' a personal attack? Just if someone is saying racist things e.g. 'all travellers are " then surely posters should be able to point that out?

Generally speaking, that's fine, edam.

We do obviously have to be a bit careful, because it's fairly easy to use that formulation to get around our personal attack rules (eg, 'your post makes you sound like an utter racist twat' - we might delete that.)

But generally we think it's fine to say 'I think the views you've expressed in that post are racist'. It's even better if you can back that up with an explanation of why you've come to that conclusion.

It's a lot about tone and being prepared to engage in a reasoned debate, if you see what we mean.

MrsDeVere · 17/08/2013 14:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AmberLeaf · 17/08/2013 14:09

Just FYI all - we do deem 'you are a racist' a personal attack, even if you think it's true

I am staggered by this.

Feenie · 17/08/2013 14:12

I strongly suspect that those who are racist against travellers are just racist.

You are right - at least one poster here has form for exactly that.

phantomnamechanger · 17/08/2013 15:14

Travellers are the last group of people that even the middle classes feel comfortable being overtly racist about.
^^ MrsDV, I agree

as evidenced here. God it's depressing Sad. All this "I'm not a racist but...."

Coconutty · 17/08/2013 15:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CatThiefKeith · 17/08/2013 15:56

Actually, my best friend is a traveller Coconutty. She and her family are showmen, from one of the most famous circus families.

I have spent the last 15 summers opening with a juvenile or funbags for her brothers, alongside lots of other showmen and Roma's.

The term traveller covers a vast blend of cultures, and unfortunately the ones that do leave playing fields smeared with excrement and litter, who steal, lie and generally terrorise the towns and villages they visit, ruin the reputation of the rest.

Believe me, many of the Showmen and Roma that I know are far more scathing about those travellers than some of the posters on here have been, because ultimately, their lives are blighted by their behaviour for far longer than just the week or two that the disruptive travellers usually stay for.

IfNotNowThenWhen · 17/08/2013 17:10

I went to a school where there would frequently be traveller and gypsy kids-lots of regular sites in the area, although no Irish Travellers that I can recall.
I don't remember the kids being particularly troublesome, just quiet, although burglaries in the area were higher when the travellers were in town.
I also grew up around fairground people-some of whom are gypsy and some aren't, and I do think that maybe there is, as others have said, a difference in culture between show people and travellers. Show/fair/circus people maybe have more of a sense of purpose, and usually very established regular pitches etc.
The trouble is, it's getting more and more difficult to have the freedom to travel and trade. Anyone ever even attempted to get a market pitch for example? The hoops and red tape are incredible, so maybe families who used to do fairs etc are finding it harder and harder to make their money this way.
The points about anti social behaviour being the same in rough areas is also true-I have lots of friends suffering awful anti social neighbours living in ordinary semis. If you don't live near people like that, and then some move near you onto a temporary site, you will think "oh, that's because they are travellers" but actually there are plenty of settled scrotes , unfortunately.
I would like to see it be made easier to travel and trade, and more pitches established.
Many of the pitches that were used when I was a kid are now built on. Land is much more valuable than it used to be. I remember (and I am not that old) families who were semi settled (you knew gypsy houses because they always decorated the outsides of their houses with wagon wheels, ornaments etc)who would keep a couple of horses in a nearby field and maybe do rag and bone with a cart. The fields are gone, and so is a source of income.
If it were easier to come and go, make a living etc, maybe things would be better.

thecatfromjapan · 17/08/2013 21:54

I just want to say that I've learned stuff I didn't know from reading this thread. I really want to thank some of the posters who have taken the time to answer so informatively - I know that it can cost (perhaps just a little, but still,) in personal ease (it leaves you tiled, uncomfortable, upset, and so on, sometimes) - so thank you for taking the time.

I was really struck by what some of the teachers, in particular, posted. It has really made me think.

giveitago · 17/08/2013 21:59

TabithaStephens Thu 15-Aug-13 13:27:57
Human rights. They are entitled to their culture. People who take umbrage at it are just being intolerant.

Really tabitha - does people's culture mean they can call my elderly mum a 'f'cking p' (you know the word) when they're trying to force my mum to pay them for work she doesn't need or want. To the point i have to hotfoot it back to her place to defend her?

Oh really?

So where does one culture take over another.

Who exactly is intolerant here?

MrsDeVere · 17/08/2013 22:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

giveitago · 17/08/2013 22:15

Well devere - there is a heck of alot of it.

What is a Traveller? No idea - My mum also doesn't give a fuck is it's roma or white guys doing their thing.

She does doesn't really want to be racially abused. OK?

Coconutty · 17/08/2013 22:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wharrgarbl · 17/08/2013 22:17

giveitago, I think reading the whole thread might help a bit.

MrsDeVere · 17/08/2013 22:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

giveitago · 17/08/2013 22:24

cocutty - that's assuming - it's been more than that. Not to me - but to my dmother. I didnt' say it's 'one person'. You did.

And why would I be predudiced against 'travellers' - what is your definition of 'travellers'?

MrsDeVere · 17/08/2013 22:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

expatinscotland · 17/08/2013 22:28

I can't believe this thread is still here! How shocking!