to think we should let go of the anger and the hatred

[yunito]

Have namechanged as this post contains some personal stuff and I suspect there are at least 2 people I know in real life on here and sorry in advance for the length of this OP.

My brother is 22 and he has not spoken to our parents for four years. As a family both my mum and dad were addicted to sailing, basically every weekend from March to November were spent pursuing this hobby (away from home either on the south coast or in north wales) and in the intervening months we would go on a holiday to warmer climates to go sailing. Mine his and out other sisters opinions on this were forcefully ignored and we were always told to be bloody grateful we weren?t starving like other children in the world. We all and my brother in particular were very shy and lacking in confidence and we never stood up to them until the age of 16 (I appreciate as eldest I should of perhaps said something on behalf of the other two as I was an adult long before they were). Although I thoroughly disagree with them for doing this and there is no way I would do it to my children I still have a reasonable relationship with them.

My brother however absolutely hates them and says that they robbed him of his childhood for their own ends and that he will never forgive them for doing this to him (my sister also holds his views but she has a cordial if infrequent relationship with them). My mum has been very ill in the last 3 months or so and has had to have a couple of operations, the second was an emergency one without which she would have died. I went to see her the day of this operation and before she went in she told me that if she didn?t make it all she wanted me to do was tell my brother that she was sorry for everything.

I?ve been thinking about this for a while and I really want him to reconcile with them, they both acknowledge their mistakes and would go back and change the past if they could. They do sporadically try to write/email him but they never receive any response. I just feel that the past cannot be changed and that the current situation is doing no good to anyone, for example he spends Christmas alone as I go round to theirs and my sister goes to her boyfriends. DP however thinks that I?m overstepping the mark even for a sibling and that his feelings are his feelings and he?s entitled to hold them no matter what anyone else thinks.

All three children think their parents behaved selfishly - it's not surprising that the one who was made physically ill feels most strongly about it.

OP, 22 is relatively young, but that cuts both ways - a) you can cut him a bit of slack and support him emotionally but b) don't necessarily assume that everything he says is set in stone for ever - he may well mellow as he matures. I don't think you said whether your DM is at actual risk of death? Does he have the time to grow up?

I think it's up to your parents to make the effort to reconcile with your DB and it shouldn't be something you feel responsible for. In the same way that it wasn't your responsibility to do something about your childhood when you were 16, just because you were the oldest.

They're the ones that should be lying awake at night worrying about this, not you. If anything, they should have redoubled their efforts to reconcile with your DB after your mum's emergency operation. If they haven't, it probably speaks volumes about why your DB still isn't talking to them and still harbours anger and hatred towards them.

It is usual for the oldest child to take on the parents' responsibility wrt siblings. But you are the child, albeit the eldest, and your parents are the parents.

YY Chiga, it is the parents respondibility to mend this relationship. Not the OP or her brother.

gotthemoononastick

"This poor sick woman is looking back with regret , facing her own demons and yet there is no grace from her family to say that some of it at least was good.

How sharper than a serpent,s tooth it is to have a thankless child!"

there is a whole host of EA bullshit wrapped up in assumptions.

Whineyarse.

This ^.

How dare parents spend their time doing something they enjoy.

22 ? Get over yourself, Mr Angry.

garlicagain - I completely agree!

Things - so you and your DC would be totally fine with you and your DP monopolised every single weekend from their birth to leaving home in pursuit of your hobby, which they actively dislike and have told you so?

You don't think children should be given any free time to do what they want, or be given choice in activities while they're under your roof?

Someone made a point earlier which I think is really important. We learn from our parents, we copy their values, often without realizing it. And we learn the most from what they DO, not what they say. The OP's parents explicitly and implicitly taught their children that adults can live their lives in whatever way they choose, without really considering or listening to other people's feelings. They taught them to place their own feelings above anyone else's.

OP's brother has learned that lesson. The parents should not be surprised- he's acting in exactly the same way that they did. For his whole childhood.

You know, there have been threads on here from people who have to live with self-pitying, self-obsessed, 'sensitive' 'damaged' whinyarses, saying what an utter blight such people are. Yes, some people have had bad experiences, terrible experiences, and may need professional help to move on. Other people are just utterly negative, and 'having therapy' encourages them to be even more focussed on themselves; a swift kick up the arse would probably be just as effective. I don't think it's at all healthy to encourage people to regard minor, non-malevolent incidents as Oh Boo Hoo My Whole Life Is Ruined.

Sailing!!! Ughhh! My experience of sailing is being cold and wet and bored, interspersed with brief periods of being cold and wet and terrified. And feeling useless the entire time

SGB

I agree that some people need a swift kick and told to get over it.

But we don't know if this is the case with the OP's DB, he could be quite happy cutting his parents out and the only time that this ever comes to a head is when the OP turns up and goes on about how il and upset their mother is.

For what its worth we had a friends fishing trip a couple of years ago (three hours sea fishing), It was a group of nine, personally most of us thought that it was great, the two that where seasick didn't, surprisingly enough they didn't partake of the meal (Chinese restaurant) afterwards.

We no longer do the fishing trip as a large group because two people wouldn't want to go, are they being whineyarses for spoiling the majorities fun or are we being inclusive by doing something that they will enjoy?

I do think it's funny we've not had anyone come on and say "sailing, that's so much fun! why didn't you enjoy it?!" just a whole pile of fellow sea sickness sufferers shuddering at the thought of feeling that sicky every single weekend for years... (are there no MNers who sail and have sea legs?)

but Pozzled, think that was me, that's the bit that I think the OP is missing, you do often find the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, it can't be surprising that people who ignored other people's feelings produce DCs who ignore other people's feelings. Mind you, it's hard for someone who's used to their feelings being the priority to suddenly realise that other people have feelings too.

I do wonder that the OP's mum only found this enlightenment that she's made mistakes raising her DCs when one of them cut her out of their life. She didn't notice htis from her DCs telling her they weren't happy, she didn't noitce it from other DCs being distant or cold with her, it took her DS cutting her out completely to get through to her that this wasn't ok. Which does beg the question, has she really realised how she acted was wrong or does she just want her son back and will say what it takes to make that happen?

Oh, as I was typing that along came boneyback- so there's at least one mner who can cope with water!

I don't think that 16 years of being made to do something that makes you phsically sick, impacts your ability to form relationships and being forcefully ignored when you object could be considered minor and non-malevolent.

SGB, woukd you consider it minor and non-malevolent if a partner was doing this to you?

funny we've not had anyone come on and say "sailing, that's so much fun! why didn't you enjoy it? - er, yes we have There've also been several others who, like me, love sailing but get the point about being forced to do something you dislike, instead of chosen activities, every single weekend.

SGB, I think you're being way out of order here. If you had a partner who made you do the same thing - his interest - in all of your spare time, I'm damn sure their belongings would be out of your house double-quick. Children, as you know quite well, are dependent and cannot tell their parents to fuck off. They have to put up with it until they're old enough to chuck the selfish wankers out of their lives - just as this chap's done!

Oh stop whineyarsing garlic

Sorry, sorry, Agent. I don't deserve to be heard. I don't know what I like doing, I need you to tell me. I really appreciate trailing after you all the time.

...

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I cannot help but think there must be more to this than sailing. Parents' hobbies often become family hobbies - think golf, horseriding, caravaning, football, rugby, sailing - is it that the children all felt ignored and neglected?
I sometimes hear children of the 60's and 70's talk about being left in the car with a bottle of pop and a packet of crisps in the pub car park whilst their parents were in the pub. is this thread the equivalent of the stately homes thread...but we took you sailing?
Parenting styles have gone the full circle, it was once the norm for parents to do as they wished and children were seen and not heard, very much in the background. Family life now seems to totally revolve round the children.

I often wonder if we need a more balanced approach.

I haven't read the whole thread but I can only say that I don't think it's your place to decide whether your brother should let go of the anger and hatred he feels towards your parents, only he can make that decision.

My Dad was a violent alcoholic. My Mum was really passive and became addicted to valium and paracetemol to block it out. My childhood was, frankly, shite. My brother and sister didn't have the same experience as me as they are a lot older. My sister by 20 years and brother by 13.

I did reconcile with my parents before they died but that was my choice. My siblings never really understood what life had been like for me trapped at home with the toxic two until my Dad turned on my sister one night and my Mum just sat there mewling "well, you must have provoked him". Sister then apologised to me for not taking on board how much crap I'd had to put up with them over the years. People rarely understand how bad things are until they are directly affected themselves. You need to leave him be. He might regret not reconciling, he might not. Only he can make that choice.

The only person your feelings are relevant to, is you, garlic (although I care )

Children test out so many interests when they're growing up, unless it's something they're genuinely interested in and enjoy, being forced to do the same thing (excessively, not in the same way I force DD1 to muck out her tip tidy her bedroom) it's going to be tortuously tedious regardless of your parents class.

But then DC do fucking go on a bit don't they? Maybe the parents were just brushing it off as general complaining?

I agree with AlwaysCheerful.

Parenting style has changed. One of my sister's (many) gripes was that my parents never said, "I love you.". But parents didn't then! Ever! Fathers did things like decorating, or reading the paper, or manly maintenance at the weekends. They didn't ferry you round to activities being dad of the year. I know that our parents loved us wholeheartedly, but they weren't physically demonstrative in the way that most parents are with their dcs today.

I certainly don't think that parents were in the habit of consulting with their dcs over holidays or days out. You just piled in the back of the car and went.

Sometimes I find myself annoyed retrospectively with my parents for not stepping in with my school (which was beyond crap). But then I have to shake myself and think that in the 80s a parent would never have contacted the school under any circumstances, let alone complain .

think that in the 80s a parent would never have contacted the school under any circumstances, let alone complain

Of course they would, it happened all the time. My parents did it, and my mother, a teacher, had plenty of parents do it (whether justified or not) where she worked.

I really don't think many people genuinely think they were abused or neglected when actually it is just a case of parenting styles having changed.

Am also a bit at some of the responses on here!

However, OP (and I think you've probably already "got" this) - your DP is right. Your brother is entitled to his feelings and will only reconcile with your parents if he wants to - you cannot make him, and you cannot tell him he is wrong if he chooses not to. It's his decision to make. Respect him enough (and more than your parents ever did!) to allow him to make his own choice, regardless of how you feel about it.

The only thing you could say to him is to ask him how he would feel if your mother did die and he hadn't seen her - how he would honestly feel about that. And then leave him to decide what to do.

I have a very poor relationship with one sibling - pretty much non-existent now, and it's fairly mutual, although I would speak to them if I had to, they would choose not to speak to me ever - and it was made infinitely worse by my mother trying to intervene to mend it. It just caused more resentment and "oh FFS just leave it alone!" responses - and this is the risk you run if you bring it up with your brother as well.

Thumbwitch - I have a similar situation with my brother.

Families where members are estranged are extremely common in my experience.

I agree, GW. It's not as unusual as some people might think.