to think we should let go of the anger and the hatred

[yunito]

Have namechanged as this post contains some personal stuff and I suspect there are at least 2 people I know in real life on here and sorry in advance for the length of this OP.

My brother is 22 and he has not spoken to our parents for four years. As a family both my mum and dad were addicted to sailing, basically every weekend from March to November were spent pursuing this hobby (away from home either on the south coast or in north wales) and in the intervening months we would go on a holiday to warmer climates to go sailing. Mine his and out other sisters opinions on this were forcefully ignored and we were always told to be bloody grateful we weren?t starving like other children in the world. We all and my brother in particular were very shy and lacking in confidence and we never stood up to them until the age of 16 (I appreciate as eldest I should of perhaps said something on behalf of the other two as I was an adult long before they were). Although I thoroughly disagree with them for doing this and there is no way I would do it to my children I still have a reasonable relationship with them.

My brother however absolutely hates them and says that they robbed him of his childhood for their own ends and that he will never forgive them for doing this to him (my sister also holds his views but she has a cordial if infrequent relationship with them). My mum has been very ill in the last 3 months or so and has had to have a couple of operations, the second was an emergency one without which she would have died. I went to see her the day of this operation and before she went in she told me that if she didn?t make it all she wanted me to do was tell my brother that she was sorry for everything.

I?ve been thinking about this for a while and I really want him to reconcile with them, they both acknowledge their mistakes and would go back and change the past if they could. They do sporadically try to write/email him but they never receive any response. I just feel that the past cannot be changed and that the current situation is doing no good to anyone, for example he spends Christmas alone as I go round to theirs and my sister goes to her boyfriends. DP however thinks that I?m overstepping the mark even for a sibling and that his feelings are his feelings and he?s entitled to hold them no matter what anyone else thinks.

Yes I thought of the Stately Homes thread too.

I had a friend when I was a kid, she lived in the same street and we grew up together. Her parents decided she was going to be a ballerina, this was their hobby, their passion, their interest.

She was basically forced into pursuing their hobby so they could live vicariously through her. They sent her to a boarding / stage school and she did very well for herself. She has nothing to do with them now and they still shuffle around town moaning about the sacrifices they made for her education.

I remember she used to sneak out of her window and come to ours for a bit of normality, eg eating toast and watching multi coloured swap shop.

I think it would be lovely if someone put your brother first for a change. Stop pandering to the needs of these selfish people and talk to the boy.

This thread and the lack of empathy has saddened me. OP I suggest you head on over to the Stately Homes thread, maybe point your brother in that direction too. You would both be made very welcome I`m sure.

I was attracted to this thread because of the "we" in the title - Yes, i think everyone should let go of the anger, because ultimately it hurts us more than the person the anger is directed at.

I think the point about it being sailing (and not being locked in the cellar) is one that the DB needs to consider. Yes, it was a form of neglect, but perhaps it would help your DB get over his anger if he realises that his upbringing was not that terrible and that there are far far worse things that he could have gone through.

He is only 22 which is terribly young really (OK, i'm only early mid thirties, but i know how immature I was at 22), and probably not quite old enough to fully understand that parents are human too, and fuck up all the time. THe fact that the parents are now contrite and realise that they made a mistake is (or should be) a start to show your DB that it wasn't done through malice, just human crapness, of which we are all guilty.

I think there's also things you can say to your DB to help - I think its OK to point out that his refusal to consider reconciliation is hurting you (because it clearly is, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to help) and putting you in an impossible situation where you feel forced to choose between your sick mother and your beloved brother. Also, and again this is a youth thing, I think, if he leaves it too late to reconcile, he may never forgive himself. Better to attempt a reconciliation and say what he has to say to his parents now, while they're still alive, than wait till they're gone and its too late to get the answers he wants.

Perhaps counselling is in order for him, because I honestly don't think that holding onto bitterness and anger for so long about your childhood is going to anything other than fuck your adulthood as well.

[Background to me: Spent my childhood pursuing my mother's passion, a very privaleged one similar to sailing. I hated it, and having the guts to turn round to my mother at 13 and say "I don't want to do this anymore" was the hardest thing I ever did. However, I never for a moment considered it was neglect. My mother is a sentient human being, with needs of her own. She loved me and thought that she was giving me what I wanted. Perhaps your DParents thought the same - i.e. they thought they were doing the right thing.]

ImperialBlether I don't think that Prince Charles' childhood was privileged. But Prince Charles had parents who effectively abandoned him in very early infancy. Firstly to go on royal tours for months on end and then for his mother to follow his father to Malta on military service. He saw them

Dumping your child for large parts of their childhood is a completely different kettle of fish from taking your child to join you in an activity which you can take part in together and you think will be good for them.

Incidentally you might have noticed that in the 80s and 90s Prince Charles' eeyorish self pity and self indulgence made himself and his family extremely unhappy. So you've slightly shot yourself in the foot with that comparison, as it illustrates a far worse childhood and also the perils of self pity and self indulgence. Not to mention the fact Charles hasn't cut off his family, despite the fact that far worth things have happened to him.

I don't necessarily think that the parents were acting from entirely selfish motives. It seems to me that they honestly thought they were doing what was best for their children.

True, there does seem to have been a certain pig headedness on their side by continuing to insist that the children did it long after the point when other parents might have given up. But at the same time the conflict in this family doesn't appear to be completely from one side. I think that the children in this family are probably quite, how shall I say, over privileged, an took those privileges for granted. And they were so privileged that they weren't really capable of seeing that they were being offered a fantastic opportunity and were being offered the chance to do something that not many people are lucky enough to be able to do. Which must have been incredibly frustrating and quite hurtful to the parents.

I know that a lot of posters on Mumsnet worship at the altar of victimhood and encourage people to think of themselves as victims at the slightest perceived slight or injury. But in some cases it's really not helpful and I think this is one. I agree with the OP totally, he should be letting go of this and trying to constructively build relationships with his family rather than self destructively stewing over something that in the great scheme of things is not that big a crime.

I also think when the OPs B is in his 40s and he's forcing his kids to go out for walks, to music lessons, or to stately homes when they would rather play on their play station or hang around a shopping centres he may feel rather sheepish about how he is behaving now.

Whatwillsantabring, you hit the nail on the head with that. And said it perhaps a little more sensitively than me.

But yes, that is what I was trying to say. It doesn't sound like these parents were deliberately being nasty or cruel. And the brother continuing to behave like this is self destructive. And yes he does need to put his childhood in perspective somewhat.

I do think the fact that these people have 3 children and only one of them maintains regular contact is quite telling.

WhatWillSantaBring
Perhaps your DParents thought the same - i.e. they thought they were doing the right thing.

According to the OP, the children's views were forcefully ignored. There seems to have been no attempt at all to allow the children time to do what they wanted to do.

Not good parenting at all, and the OP says they've acknowledged they were wrong.

So it's actually irrelevant that it's sailing. The OP's parents put their hobby first and the children second. TBH that would feel like a very big rejection to me if I were a child in that situation.

Well, as someone who also has sea sickness, the idea of being forced on a boat every weekend for years sounds like a form of torture to me, and probably was for your DB. You "just" were isolated from your friends and forced to do something your parents wanted but had no interest in, your brother had that, plus spend every weekday knowing he'd be spending every weekend feeling sick with the people who should care the most about him not giving one tiny fuck that they were deliberately making their child sick every. single. weekend. For me, seasickness is worse than morning sickness - and at least morning sickness usually is only part of the day, if I was on a boat all day I'd feel like that all day. Plus it will take the day after to recover.

But mostly, you learn how to be an adult from watching your parents. Your parents taught your DB that the most important thing is that you are happy. Other people's feelings don't really matter, all that matters is you do what makes you happiest and your life as good as possible. Your mum can hardly complain that your DB has learned this lesson well and is putting it into practice. Your mum didn't give a shit about your DB's feelings or well being as a child, he doesn't give a shit about hers now.

(interesting that it took him cutting them out for them to think their treatment of their DCs might be wrong, if he hadn't done something so drastic do you think it would ever have occurred to them that they bad parents? Their DS throwing up every weekend, being miserable, telling them he hated sailing didn't seem to register with them)

He's young, hopefully as he grows older he'll learn that your parents are wrong, its not ok to always put yourself first no matter what. But that will take time, he has to "unlearn" it.

I find some of the responses on here very harsh. To suggest that sympathy for this young man is worshipping on the altar of victimhood is nasty.

The mother is now sorry for what she did, which indicates something was done. The son feels he hates her for what she did, yet you suggest he is overreacting.

I think a lot of this is a class/wealth issue. As others have said, if sailing hadn't been mentioned then I think some reactions might have been different. If the OP had said, "My parents treated us badly and as a result we all lacked confidence. They put themselves first and all three of us grew up feeling they weren't interested in us. My sister will answer their calls but my brother, the youngest, hates them for their neglect of his needs and since he was 18 has refused to see them. He spent last Christmas alone while I went to my parents' and my sister stayed with her boyfriend. AIBU to think he should get over it?" I think there would have been some very different answers.

Fryonefatmaniac, that's not true. The parents may very well have felt that they were prioritizing both. I don't think it's outside the bounds of reasonableness to suppose that the parents thought that sailing would be very good for their shy children lacking in confidence and that they were doing the best thing for them as well as pursuing their hobby.

They made a parenting fuck up by insisting that they carry on coming, but this wasn't a abuse. It was a poor parenting decision.

Your mother saying sorry wont change the fact that your brother's childhood was emotionally damaging. I think it's all too little too late. If I were you, him or your sister, I would want little or nothing to do with them as an adult either. They don't deserve to have their adult children in their lives now in my view.

Plus letting go of anger and hatred is very difficult - with or without counselling - as I'm sure people who have been there will testify.

not your problem, not your responsibility

sorry OP, its hard but butt right out

OH, and I dont blame him for being pissed off BTW. I would not dream of inflicting my hobby on my kids every weekend

LadyBeagleEyes

xxxxx. be well. I have a dear friend going through the same, and I know its wrong thread!! xxxxxx

oh and solidgolds comment "you are all angry with your parents because they liked to take you sailing? Boo fucking hoo."

he suffered from seasickness, and never did anything he liked at the weekend. i.e
football
parties
playdates
park
TV
museums
etc etc

your lack of comnpassion is actually PAINFUL to read

putting you in an impossible situation where you feel forced to choose between your sick mother and your beloved brother

How? I don't see that the OP is being forced to choose between them.

OP, I think your DH is right too. What I would also say is that maybe your brother could do with some support and love from you: to know that while you've chosen differently you respect his position, to talk about things, to be encouraged to seek out some help like therapy and yes, to be invited for Christmas.

Forgive me if this is all wrong but just reading your posts it seems as though your parents are still central and getting all the attention in the family dynamic. But you have 2 siblings and every opportunity to build a good adult relationship with them that is independent of the relationship (or lack of one) each of you has with your parents. I would do that for your sake and your brother's and let him sort out what if anything he wants to do to resume contact.

Eldritch is spot on, be there for him that's all you can do x

I think some of the comments here (whilst painful to read) are very enlightening, as they clearly show that for many people parental neglect, seems to go hand in hand with poverty

This reminds me why the name of the "stately home" thread ever came about!!

OP, whilst I do think you should back off, you do have my sympathy too. I also agree with developing relationships with your siblings away from parents

shit parenting occurs everywhere sadly xxxxx

Hmm..firstly he's not a "boy", he's 22 . Whilst I have sympathy and the childhood does sound pretty shit, I think it's about intent. I doubt your parents ever intended to "rob him off his childhood" and probably thought they were giving you all a good time and sharing their passion. They are not inherently bad people for that. I agree that they massively fucked up and it didn't work at all but I also think that for your DB to cut them off entirely is a little over-the-top.

Another poster here who thought of the stately homes thread while reading this.

Some of the comments on here are really horrible..revelling in victimhood?

Seems like emotional abuse and neglect are a-ok with some folk, as long as the family has nice, middle class hobbies.

SofiaVagueara

Actually, I think the parents behaviour was verging on the abusive as they knew their son was seasick and yet still insisted on the sailing for years.

This is definitely putting their own needs and desires ahead of what was best for their children, who are all individuals and who should have been treated as such.

And if posters want to talk about intent, would you insist on your children sharing your hobby? Even if you knew they didn't want to do it, and even if you knew that this hobby made at least one of your children ill? The OP says this went on for years, so I don't believe the parents have any excuse for the shit they put their children through.

But hardly any parents set out to be rubbish parents... their intent is not the point. They should have paid attention to their DCs' wants and needs.

Gosh, this thread is reminding me how much I hate sailing!