To want to leave this website for making me think about that one.

[filee777]

It's really really upset me, I've had some great support on this forum but I think I have to be off.

Such a shame.

No youstay as i explained as couple of times i am satisfied with the response by MNHQ.

Those people are paid by our taxes MrsB and act as representatives of my country, I am quite allowed to hold an opinion of them. their 'personal sacrifice' is nothing to do with me. No more than the 'personal sacrifice' of the mother who has to watch her child slowly die in a war torn country, or of the people who have to live with their arms and legs blown off because we leave fucking bombs everywhere.

Personally i find the 'sacrifice' of the people who chose to go to war less than those people, so my sympathy lies with them.

Ok, well DH pays his taxes too and your recent post seems to confirm that it's not just the Army/Forces you hold in utter contempt, but all the individuals within it. Which of course is your right.

But I think, if you ever got your wish, and the Army was disbanded, then your husband conscripted, we'd be hearing differently very quickly.

Of course I disagree with the people in the armed forces, i have said that much all along. You can't fight a war without soldiers. I just cannot see how you can hate 'insurgents' in Afghanistan and then call 'soldiers' heroes. i think its really disturbing. We should all stop killing each other

you seem to be basing on the premise that people WANT to kill us when i think that is very much untrue. I think our actions abroad make people want to kill us, without them we would just be a little island on the other side of the world thats proven in 2 wars that if you fuck with us, we fight back. Thats all we needed to be.

...and some of us still serve.

I have seen active service in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq. I am extremely proud of the things I have done in those countries, and for the persecuted people of those countries. I am pleased to still be in contact with people from those war zones, people I have helped and formed friendships with. I was humbled and over the moon to be asked to attend the British Citizenship ceremony and celebrations in 2002 for the family of a young lady that I spent 6 months with back in 1996 following the destruction and devastation of her village, including the murder of a number of her immediate family.

I've never killed any one. In fact, quite the opposite, I helped to deliver the baby of a child who had been raped and tourtured. I arranged for that child and her baby to be treated by the British Military (more soldiers) and was instrumental in getting that child, her baby and her remaining family into safe accommodation. That baby is now an adult itself and I am proud to be an 'honorary auntie' that loves hearing from them.

I don't know any rapists or murderers. I don't know any soldiers that would condone or cover up rape or murder - and I'm betting that I know a damn sight more soldiers than you.

The 'Hero' tag was started by the Sun - a paper whose circulation was flagging so they decided to boost it by taking on a 'pet' -the British Military. It was then used by the H4H Charity and relates solely to those service men and women injured in the line of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan - not all soldiers (and they don't provide charity for all soldiers, which is why I don't support them). I don't know one single soldier that considers himself a 'hero' or would use the word. Not one - and again, I'm betting that I know a damn sight more soldiers than you.

I know some true heroes. The men who put themselves in the line of fire to draw it from their wounded colleagues. The men that assisted me when I needed their strength. The doctor that performed an emergency c section on a child in harrowing circumstances. They are soldiers and heroes, but would hate it if they heard me describe them as such. I also know some civilian heroes - the young lady I spoke about earlier, for all she went through and came out the other side . The men and women that put their lives on the line to act as interpreters during conflicts. The old man that stood in front of a vehicle with a shotgun in his hands daring the evil young men in his village to try to get past him.

Oh and as a final point - Countries with conscripted soldiers have far more instances of acts against the Geneva Convention, of atrocities committed during times of conflict, of desertion and murder and genocide. Conscripted soldiers are there because they have to be, not because they want to be. They are less loyal, less disciplined and not as well trained. Consciption is a terrible idea.

If you look back at my responses at NO point have I said 'all soldier's good, all insurgents bad' or any such variation on that theme.

In fact, I have repeatedly said soldiers aren't heroes.

Nor have I commented on current actions other than to say 'Northern Ireland is in a better state than it was 20 years ago' and 'we shouldn't be in Afghanistan/Iraq'.

I won't comment on the WW1/WW2 theme, but I really can't agree with you on that, either - and even if I did, warfare is totally different now.

You seem so convinced we'd raise an Army if there wasn't one and we faced WW3.

Would you join it voluntarily (with your dim view of them)?

Why would anyone else?

The mere thought that conscription would work these days is laughable.

Conscription does work, in many countries around the world.

I can tell you this, having an armed forces that most of the world view as terrorists does NOT work.

'...and some of us still serve.

I have seen active service in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq. I am extremely proud of the things I have done in those countries, and for the persecuted people of those countries.'

Weat least a fair number of usare proud of you too.

LtEveDallas great post.

I can tell you this, having an armed forces that most of the world view as terrorists does NOT work

And again with the huge, sweeping generalisations.

I'm sure some parts of the world view our Armed Forces as terrorists.

I'm equally as sure that some parts of the world don't.

I further believe some people in the World know that the Forces has it's fair share of fuckwits but that not every serving member of the Forces is a fuckwit.

You're not the only one to travel and talk to people from other countries and cultures about this sort of thing.

Indeed I did MrsBW and you are right that my wording was incorrect.

I will say now that ALMOST all people in the army SUPPORT an institution that kills people.

I don't at all think that those who sign up to the army do so because they want to go abroad and kill lots of innocent people.

When my family members fought in different wars, they all did it to defend what they loved the most, their families, whom they felt were under attack.

If someone attacked my family member, believe me I would leap to their defence with appropriate force. If that would lead me to kill someone, then I would be a killer BUT IN SELF DEFENCE.

I agree that KILL is a very emotive word, but I think some acknowledgement of what the armed forces actually do is necessary. KILLING IS NOT ALWAYS SADISTIC AND UNNECESSARY. SOMETIMES SELF DEFENCE IS A VERY LEGITIMATE DEFENCE.

The question now I think is "how much of what the British army currently do is to defend the nation?"

The problem I think comes from what people then define as self defence. Many feel Britain is under attack and needs defending, but then many feel that they are under attack from Britain and need to defend themselves.

The discussion on this thread initially stemmed from another forums discussion over memories of Kenya, that included child abuse and child rape admittance by supposed ex British military personnel. I personally feel that there is a lot of glossing over what actually happens during war by some posters on this thread, almost pure denial.

In Britain the HORRIFIC death of a young serviceman in Woolwich sent shock waves across the country. We have reports of far more than one death resulting from depraved or abuse of powers by British soldiers. Yes it may not be thousands, but we have experienced SUBSTANTIALLY less civilian deaths from recent wars, yet each one has reverberated through our nation, who doesn't remember the 7/7 bombings. What would the nation be feeling if you were looking at a far higher civilian death toll and the killers and abusers of these innocent people wore a flag on their uniforms as they committed these acts.

Thank you poppin for coming back and pointing that out.

I agree entirely with your thread.

Post sorry, not thread.

Abra1d and YouStayClassy, thank you

Beautiful post, LtEve. Worthy of your namesake.

I typed that pretty quickly so excuse a few errors.

Great post LtEve.

No problem MrsBW, I'm not one to be very stubborn

Well said poppin

in the cold light of day i dont know how ANYONE could be proud of any involvement in the Iraq war, we ripped their country apart, destroyed their infrastructure, killed millions of innocent people.

yes some people in war zones do good, but one person (a military man actually) put it like this 'its like going into a home, ripping it to shreds, destroying everything in sight and then feeding the cat on the way out'

Feeding the cat does not make amends for the atrocities committed.

Thank you filee.

I think it is very hard for many to put themselves in the shoes of those civilians who deal with the brutality of war right on their doorstep in other countries. We live in a cocoon from the realities in this country.

Thanks LtEve, good post

jesus though....jesus.....

in the cold light of day i dont know how ANYONE could be proud of any involvement in the Iraq war

Well now you know me. And I am VERY proud.

I'm proud of the school I helped to build. Proud of the female children getting their first education at the age of 12. Proud of the removal of the 'village elder' who had his 'pick of the girls' as soon as they had their first period. Proud of helping one family escape. Proud of getting innoculations and vaccinations to areas that were previously 'no go' and children routinely died of things like chicken pox and measles. Proud of the doctors and nurses that were able to treat the men women and children injured by mines and IED planted by their own 'people', long before NATO stepped in. Proud of the engineers that inserted a full drainage system and one working flush toilet (actually that was just as a bit of fun, as the villagers wouldn't use the toilet but found it funny to have it sitting in the square...it worked too!). Prouder still at the engineers who bridged a river that enabled families to come together for the first time in over 5 years. Even proud of the soldier that punched someone rather important in the nose for hitting a child across the face with a religious text, breaking his cheekbone in the process (soldier was disciplined for his action, but said Orders that he would do exactly the same again). Oh and proud for leaving behind my DVD player and a stack of Disney DVDs...even though I wasn't supposed to.

and I'm proud to have been part of a force that deposed a cruel and sadistic murderer. Someone who committed genocide. Someone who ordered the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians simply because he didn't like their creed and religion. Thousands of people....more than were killed by NATO forces and in far more horrifying and excruciating ways.

LtEveDallas and I believe the majority of soldiers believe the same in reference to Afghanistan too?

Especially pre Hellmand.

Helmand even

Can we all have naice ham sandwiches now?