to think the diet industry is utterly evil?

[ICBINEG]

been watching 'The men that made us thin' and am simply overwhelmed.

So diets don't work....most people end up heavier than if they had not dieted at all...one guy was like "well duh! if they worked we would lose our customers"....another wrote a book aimed at teenage girls including the advice to " buy scales and keep them secret from your parents"

The constant stream of adverts aimed at middle aged women are seen by children who by age 6-7 have self-esteem issues and can quote the number of calories in most foods...

My evil-ometer is broken.

Oh dear I seem to have started a bit of a row !

I am a scientist by training, and come from a medical family- so I do know how to read a study and find information.

I also know that an awful lot of studies start from the certain view point that natural animal fats are dangerous, and whatever the actual findings of a study, saturated fat intake is usually pointed at as a cause IMO often without considering the role of other fats in the diet (processed seed oils, manufactured fats), or the role of carbohydrate in the diet, as carbohydrates are widely perceived to be "healthy" as they are low fat.

Actually in the study Cote linked, it was pointing the finger firmly at level of carbohydrate consumption in obese individuals as the biggest risk factor in gallbladder disease, but also said cholesterol consumption and plant fibre intake was protective.
So it's not really the best study to debunk my crazy ideas .

We are all adults, we are free to look at the evidence and compare different views and theories - forget gallstones for a wee while, within medicine as a whole, not just the area of nutrition, there are a lot of "known" treatments and facts which are not evidence based, or done because "that's what we do".

I'd like to think that is changing now, Ds1, now 3rd year med student, is certainly being given a solid "evidenced based" training (rather, and encouragement to go away and find papers that contradict the current POV), although his university is very very research orientated.

Just to throw the car amongst the pigeons...

IMO (and the opinion of many others, including a small but growing number of reactionary doctors - it's not just me!)

Animal fats, as found naturally (ie on the animal, in the eggs, round the organs), are healthy fats. Especially if the animal has been raised on a natural diet (the diet the animal evolved eating)

Processed, chemically extracted fats (veg/seed oils) are bad.
Grains (all of them), are damaging and cause many health problems in both animals we feed them to, and to humans. They are full of natural plant toxins.

Grains are not part of the natural human diet - before the Neolithic (the advent of agriculture), grains were not consumed (not in sizeable quantities).

We should go back to eating real foods, non processed, fresh.

So- lots of leafy veg, fish, meat and eggs, some nuts and fruits, some starchy veg (less if you need to lose weight). Some cream, cheese and butter if you can tolerate dairy.

The rule is pretty much "if you can pick it or dig it up or kill it with your spear, eat it" .

Anyone interested? Try "Marks Daily Apple" website for sensible info.

LOL at putting the car among the pigeons ...

. The pigeons would not be pleased!

I'm think I need to follow your diet if you can throw a car

Iceberg. I think that to say the entire industry is evil is a bit unfair. Yes any business is there to make money, but do you not think that a companies morals, and approach to slimming or indeed a healthy lifestyle may negate any of the "evil" in being a commercial company.

As I said earlier, I can only comment knowledgeably on Slimming World having been a consultant, but I know their whole ethos is one of changing ones lifestyle habits to be more healthy with better eating and a less sedentary life.

They research their product, and react quickly to whatever the latest advice given by the DoH is and they employ a top nutritionist to ensure that the advice they have given is in the best interests of the member.

They now push the extra easy scheme and new members are encouraged to do that rather than the old red and green days. In my experience it works extremely well and has an extremely high success rate for weight loss AND for staying at their chosen target.

I personally think that they are certainly not evil, having helped many thousands of members reach a healthy weight and change their lifestyle from a potentially destructive one to a much more sustainable way of life. They are a privately owned company and yes the owner is wealthy, but they are a company that invests a huge amount in the product, very little of which is on advertising, as the word of mouth support they get is fantastic.

Can you reasonably say they are evil from what I have said?

Sorry, I should have added that the goal for slimming world is for their members to reach their target and stay there. If they were interested in only profits they would not give target members free sessions.

'Yes any business is there to make money, but do you not think that a companies morals, and approach to slimming or indeed a healthy lifestyle may negate any of the "evil" in being a commercial company. '

Ilove
profit is the raison d'etre of business.
A business only behaves in a 'moral' way if it is profitable to do so,
Labelling a business as evil for putting profit above the well being of people is irrational.
It's up to governments to legislate in such a way as to ensure 'moral' behaviour in companies

''If they were interested in only profits they would not give target members free sessions.'
and thats a bit like saying if tesco was only interested in profit there'd be no special offers and 'bogof' deals :o

Ilove I explained the business decision behind this upthread:

^No, they are using slim members being there as advertising. Plus if you have gone whilst under your target you are more likely to keep going should you put the weight back on, so they get more money.

It is a long term plan, to make them money. If you wouldn't pay (because you are a healthy weight) the only way they can get you into the meetings to advertise to you is to let you in for free.^

MrsHoarder. It's a shame you have made your mind up. Having worked with them I know that they have a goal that is not just money orientated. It appears that you will not accept that is possible, so I guess you will never really believe this.

Am doing WW

the maths involved is whats making it a struggle. When food labelling is 100g instead of the actual amount thats in the pot I have to try and work it out before i can even put it into the pro points calculator.
At school i was taken out of the maths classrooom and put upstairs in "Special Help" (That was what they called it in the 80s) i found the maths work in SH too easy and the maths in the GCSE classroom too hard I didnt fit into their neat little box. I failed GCSE maths. Tried to repeat it at local college With the long fractions everyone else got it in 15 mins. The college lecturer ended up using his own time to sit down with me for an hour and a half which is the time it took for me to understand it. I cannot cope with doing a bloody maths equation every time im going to put something in my mouth. Unless what is on the container IS the same amount (portion size) that is in the container. So to combat this i have been power walking for an hour and a half every day (today i managed to do the same distance in an hour because i found my old trainers.) Having dropped my calories i should be losing weight and hopefully getting a bit fitter IMO.

Darkesteyes - would you consider low carbing? If you are, then why not come and join us on the next low carb Bootcamp, which starts on 9 September here's the sign up thread if you're interested

Bootcamp lasts for 10 weeks, and the idea is that there is no weighing or counting of anything. Just 10 rules to follow, and that's it.

On the WW track your food drink and activity sheet is
Weekly Pro Points ALLOwance. Activity Pro Points Values earned.
And activity Pro points values used for food and drink.

Under each section is rows of different numbers. All i see are fucking numbers each time i look at it.
My college lectturer could see fine well that i was never going to pass GCSE maths so he arranged for me to sit City and Guilds Numaracy instead which i passed. If it wasnt for him i would have NO maths qual at all on my CV.
Ive been out power walking every day for an hour and a half I managed to do the same distance in an hour today after finding my old trainers. Low calories and excersise. should bloody work without me having to resort to all this multiply and divide this and that bollocks which i cant cope with This is going to drive me back to smoking at this rate.
I was considering doing the Cambridge a few weeks back. Im starting to consider it again. IT SHOULDNT be this fucking hard. I shouldnt be having to do a fucking maths equation every time i go to put something in my mouth.

See Darkesteyes!!!

Thanks BIWI i will take a look before taking up smoking again starts to look any more temptiing Weight Watchers is really stressful. its bad enough being in pain every time i drop my portion sizes. The stress is ALL THE FUCKING MATHS involved.

NO MATHS ON BOOTCAMP!

Raw - Hard as it may be for you to believe at this point, I started off re animal fats increasing risk of gallbladder stones because I was alarmed when you said you follow a high-fat diet despite a history of gallstones.

I hope for your sake that you are right

Oh. And MrsHoarder. What exactly are SW a,divert using to you? Unlike most other plans they do not push a range of food products ( well, a very small one)

You may be talking about other groups, but I have to say you are so wrong about SW. Unless you have facts you can tell me that I am not aware of, of course.

Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.

That's the best diet advice I ever had.

Cote, I was also alarmed ! But faced with a situation where clearly, having developed gallstones, I was on a path to almost certain surgery.

Having read (scholarly) papers on both the outcomes of surgery (and the long term problems associated), and the outcomes of current dietary advice to patients ( tends to lead to worsening of the condition over a few months!).
I decided to try something a bit different, which in theory at least, might work (to get the gallbladder functioning again). So far it has worked as I still have my gallbladder and no attacks...

And my health in general has improved hugely on this (paleo/primal) woe - with is basically the nightmare diet of the diet industry - absolutely no special diet food or processed anything.

Just real food, based around leaves, veg, animal fats and proteins. With fruits, nuts and seeds in moderation.

Darkesteyes, have you been tested for dyscalculia (like dyslexia but involving numbers?

WRT WW, just do filling and healthy foods and avoid all the counting, perhaps?

Yep thats what im doing from today Boffin. An hours power walk round my housing estate when i got up.I went round twice Had to push myself to go round a second time but i did.
And am eating plenty of protein.
Have dropped Pro Points Plan as of today but am still logging what i eat and counting calories. I CAN and WILL do this.

Have dropped Weight Watchers because when i phoned the consultant for help she went into the hard sell saying i need to buy the shopping guide for £15.....err no I NEED to buy a sports bra. Much more important.

I have a feeling that is my problem with maths Boffin. Thanyou I will look into that.

If you are looking to do WW (even if you understandably don't want to go back to the meetings) is that you divide the calories in your portion by 40. It's not 100% but it's usually spot on.