to think this child is too old to be exposing himself?

[JenniBoo]

Bit of a back story... was delighted when a young family bought the house next door. After the previous elderly couple (who would complain about noise and balls going over the wall etc.,) I thought another young family would be a breath of fresh air and that their boys (8, 5 and 3) would play with my daughters (3yrs and 3 mths).

The first hint that they were not our sort of people became apparent almost immediately. They are both heavy smokers - they must smoke at least a pack a day - but instead of doing it in their house, they (and their friends) congregate on the porch- the smell wafts across into our garden and through the kitchen window. One day it was so bad, you could smell it in my baby's bedroom on the floor above! I asked them politely if they would mind smoking indoors or at the end of their garden - but they were completely unapologetic and said they couldn't do that because in the house if might affect THEIR children - and that at the end of the garden, they would get wet!

She seems to let her kids run wild - she is never in the garden with them, and the noise is something else. The other day I had to complain because they were throwing stones at each other - one flew across into our garden narrowly missing my baby, who was sleeping in the pram. I went across to complain but the mother couldn't have cared less. She lined them up and made them apologize, but she was all "boys will be boys" and you could tell she wasn't really sorry.

Today has been the final straw though. I came out to find both the younger boys exposing themselves to my older daughter. They had climbed onto their trampoline and were waving them at her. The older boy was there too, but was just laughing. I went round to the mother and told her. . The other mother told me I was "being stupid" and that "they are just little boys" and that I should "get over myself".

I don't think a 5 year old should be getting his willy out in public. Surely if he did that in the class at school he would be in huge trouble? Am I being unreasonable?

I think the point is op that you become less judgy of situations as you experience them.

Atm you have a three year old who by the sounds of it is more than happy to sit and play quietly by herself. The newborn is a typical newborn and not doing much of anything as of yet. Good for you and your supreme parenting.

However, when you have six and three year olds - who interact, play with each other, argue and bicker, chase each other around screaming, telling tales occasionally - your pov will much likely be very different to now.

However, that they are prepared with a day or two to sit in their garden, screaming at my DD and getting our their willies (which they must know is not very nice behaviour) demonstrates tome that she has no control over them, and that they think they can behave how they like.

So the willy wagglers were actually sitting in their garden at the time. In which case there's no way your daughter saw anything, olympic size trampoline or not. I think you're embellishing in order to demonise the little children next door and drum up MN outrage.

jenni people are trying to give you advice. Have you read any of it or are you just concentrating on picking fights and ridiculing cjel who is just trying to give you an idea of the strain your neighbour might be feeling?

Oh and children are only concerned with gender at an early age if the parents push their own prejudices and ideals onto them btw, do you have much experience of young children apart from your own?

Yes - quite a bit. I used to work with this age group before I gave up work when DD1 was born.

OP, what would you like your neighbour to do?

Me too, for quite a while. I now childmind the same age group alongside my own Dc's. so you should have more of an idea about dealing with small children than maybe the parents. So why are you not using the strategies you must have learnt through work?
They still work in a home setting you know!

then surely you must understand that this is well within the boundary for normal behaviour from such very young children? that it's not socially acceptable in all situations (or even not nice) may be something they're not aware of?

or did you only work with little girls in very small classes?

Gosh. Friday night must be worth buying tickets for. That comment about controlling her kids and the boundary fence is sure going to go down well.

in my experience kids 3 - 5 are obsessed with gender, annoyingly so. We don't "do" gender in our house and I suspect dd1's obsession with "performing girl" is to do with that - it is to do with her looking up to slightly older girls at preschool and at the cm, who are all pinked up to abomination, and she associates gender-neutrality with her boring old house and her recent baby-hood. We just let her look like unicorn vomit, she'll grow out of it. (I hope.) But it is nonsense to say that it comes from the parents, necessarily.

However, in this case, I think "willy waving at someone" is the issue and "willy waving at a girl" might be a red herring. (not sure that it is but I think it is just safer to pretend it is for now)

so is it ok or not ok for a 3 year old to say to a small child in the next garden "Oi Alex! ALEEXXXXX! ALEX!" and pull his willy out of his shorts?
for a 4 year old?
For a 5 year old?
for a 6 year old?
for a 7 year old?

Let me be clear - when I suggest "is it not ok?" I do not mean, "is a child who does this a rare and unusual pervert and authorities should be alerted" I mean "if a child does this is it reasonable to find it annoying and might it be usual for the parents to try to get the behaviour to stop"

by the way I am not the op. Someone has mixed me up with the op I think (I said "where are all the willy-waving apologists?" or words to that effect and someone seems to think it was the op)

are you saying if there were some boys throwing stones in the vicinity of your newborn, that your principle concern would be whether they were aiming at the baby or not. I couldn't give a toss what they intended - the point is that they could have seriously hurt her. Is that makes me rediculous or hysterical then so be it. Here you go again with your hysterical outbursts. Of course I would be concerned and pissed off and I would have a word with the mother, what I wouldn't go round doing is changing my story and telling people they were throwing stones AT my baby. You need to get a grip seriously.

In all honesty, I think it the parent's attitude that is the main problem. The children don't listen to the mother and are running riot. The parents seem rather selfish people, unprepared to consider their impact on others (eg. the smoking) - so you'd hardly expect the children to be charming either, would you? However, that's none of my business - we dont' need to have these people to tea - when they start to endanger my children by lobbing stones and upsetting my child who is playing quietly in the garden - then it is my business though.

Merrymouse I would like her to regain sufficient control that her children know not to irritate the neigbhours - the odd ball over the fence is fine - but stones should never be thrown - and name calling and climbing over the fence - that shouldn't be happening either!

The idea that looking after 3 small boys is somehow hugely tough is quite frankly laughable. The children are just poorly disciplined.

I will listen to what she has to say of course, but I dont' think you can bring up your children to misbehave, and then shrug your shoulders or worse, get all upset, when other people point out that there behaviour is unacceptable.

Right - we are off out for the day. At least it will keep us out of the garden.

Yep, as I suspected, the OP isn't listening to anyone who doesn't agree with her view that her neighbours kids are little yobs. Am our, good luck OP, you're going to need it.

Your latest point on yobbishness is unpleasant. Quite Sooty. Apparently the OP has branded me a yob now because I think she is changing her story to get people to see the throwing stones event as some kind of contrived attempt to injure her child. I think a large grip and some professional help is needed for the OP.

Your whole attitude stinks to be frank.

I think you'll have a surprise on Friday night! You really think they've invited you around to discuss their shortcomings as parents?

You may think you clearly know what I was 'saying' but again have completely missed the point. You are telling me how hard your life is with a three yr old and 3 month old. I was responding that a toddler and baby IS much easier that three children 8,5 and 3 whatever their sexes,

Perhaps you will now 'drip' the awful pressures you are living under that allows you the time to fall out with your last two neighbours.
I am not complaining. YOU ARE. Again someone was trying to get you to understand things from another perspective but you won't listen . As I said attacking me won't make you any more reasonable.
If you really want to get into how hard my life is compared to yours go for it but it won't alter the fact you asked aibu. nearly everyone on here said yes,
try thinking of the pressures other people live with. they move to a lovely new home to raise their boys in and you appear to complain about things that hardly anyone else thinks is unreasonable,that they are doing in their own garden,

If you are as special as you clearly think you are move to somewhere that has no neighbours. Problem solved!!

The idea that looking after 3 small boys is tough is frankly laughable. Ok how about you swap your 3mo and quiet 3 year old for the 3 boys ? You will probably get loads more done.

Jenni re your last post. If you really really believe that the main problem is the parents and that raising 3 lovely boys is easy and that she should 'control' her boys as you want you will be very disappointed at Fridays meeting and as a parent in years to come. Hope you mange a day out without meeting any other normal parents or their children

Oh so they are running riot now?

One stone throwing incident which they apologized for.

And another time they have been playing on their trampoline and flashed their willies? Did they get naked?and its not naughty for them to call over the fence to your daughter they were probably just trying to get her attention to play. They weren't deliberately trying to upset her, the were being silly and a quick 'hey boys * doesn't want to see your willy please' would have sufficed. But to is fine for them to be naked in their own garden.

As I said mine play naked, of Thur were purposefully waggling their willies AT another person I would tell them to cut it out but I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.

And yes there is a big difference between throwing stones and one accidentally nearly hitting your baby, not nice and not too but they apologized. Or deliberately aimkng stones at a baby which would have me furious if my kids did it. Accidents happen, they shouldn't have been throwing stones but it was an accident and they apologized.

I hope the OP doesn't seriously intend to go round to the neighbours on Friday night and simply tell them their parenting is poor, their kids are unpleasant and they need to regain control.

It would be unlikely to end well.

I've got one of each FWIW and IMO boys do just need more intensive parenting/supervision at each stage. They are generally stronger and more physical. This is coupled with less emotional maturity and worse impulse control.I love my Ds and his friends to bits, but I realy have to think about what I am going to do with them, make sure there is enough physical activity and supervise them closely in the house when he has a playdate.

Dds friends on the other hand play for hours in a totally unstructured and cooperative way. A trip to the park to buy an icecream is a major adventure and I realy don't have to think futher than that.

wow.

you have continually changed your story to validate your point. The name calling at one point was conjecture on your part, and is now stated as fact. and apparently they were now climbing the fence rather than just being ont he trampoline (from where your 3 year old could not possibly have seen the wilies you are so concerned about.) and you feel that this 'name calling' endangers your child.

you think the children are running riot when in fact they are playing in their own garden. that they are playing boisterously is not in doubt but that this makes the parents bad uncaring parents is just not true.

you really need to take a deep breath before friday - otherwise you risk alienating these people and that is just going to make everything ten times worse.

these people have been reasonable so far - in making the kids apologise and offering to meet on friday night. if you storm over and accuse them of being bad parents and try to link raising the fence height to their kids behaviour, then it will be you and not them (or the kids) who have created a bad neighbour situation.

IMO (and trying to be constructive) you need to ask if they can ask their kids to be a little calmer in the garden. you could definitely ask the 3 year old to come and play without his brothers. you should definitely take a bottle of wine and drink it during the chat (maybe crisps and stuff too, to make the whole thing seem social rather than hostile). you should say that you've been thinking of raising the fence height for a while - are they ok with that? (they may well offer to pay half).

I also agree with the comments suggesting that the neighbours probably have quite a few things they want to say to you. And they won't be pleasant hearing.

Merrymouse I would like her to regain sufficient control that her children know not to irritate the neigbhours

What does this look like in practice?

I think you need to have some practical suggestions in mind.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, asking somebody to regain control of their children won't help your rather fraught relationship.

Obviously throwing stones is wrong, however, some noise is to be expected, and you say that you aren't bothered by the occasional ball over the fence. Could you be more positive by suggesting what you would be happy for them to do (e.g. riotous noise acceptable at certain times of day e.g. from 9 to 6 during school hols, but your baby naps at a certain time, so could they quieten down then?)

Also, could you agree that if there are no parents in the garden, you will tell them when they have overstepped boundaries and the parents will back you up if necessary?

"you'd hardly expect the children to be charming either, would you?"

Who knows, but if you are charming, you are far more likely to achieve your goal which, presumably, is to have a pleasant time in your garden.

Jenni the issue is not your neighbour's control if her sons, it's your need to control your neighbours to alleviate your anxiety.

So many posters have pointed out that your neighbour's DSs are exhibiting normal behaviour for their ages and stages. The mum told them off for their unruly behaviour as normal. It is normal
for smokers with DCs to smoke outside.

Your control issues are not normal. You know this, that is why you are attributing malicious intent to the boy's actions where none exist. Please get help for your anxiety and control and stop blaming your neighbours for the way you feel in the face of normal behaviour.