to think this child is too old to be exposing himself?

[JenniBoo]

Bit of a back story... was delighted when a young family bought the house next door. After the previous elderly couple (who would complain about noise and balls going over the wall etc.,) I thought another young family would be a breath of fresh air and that their boys (8, 5 and 3) would play with my daughters (3yrs and 3 mths).

The first hint that they were not our sort of people became apparent almost immediately. They are both heavy smokers - they must smoke at least a pack a day - but instead of doing it in their house, they (and their friends) congregate on the porch- the smell wafts across into our garden and through the kitchen window. One day it was so bad, you could smell it in my baby's bedroom on the floor above! I asked them politely if they would mind smoking indoors or at the end of their garden - but they were completely unapologetic and said they couldn't do that because in the house if might affect THEIR children - and that at the end of the garden, they would get wet!

She seems to let her kids run wild - she is never in the garden with them, and the noise is something else. The other day I had to complain because they were throwing stones at each other - one flew across into our garden narrowly missing my baby, who was sleeping in the pram. I went across to complain but the mother couldn't have cared less. She lined them up and made them apologize, but she was all "boys will be boys" and you could tell she wasn't really sorry.

Today has been the final straw though. I came out to find both the younger boys exposing themselves to my older daughter. They had climbed onto their trampoline and were waving them at her. The older boy was there too, but was just laughing. I went round to the mother and told her. . The other mother told me I was "being stupid" and that "they are just little boys" and that I should "get over myself".

I don't think a 5 year old should be getting his willy out in public. Surely if he did that in the class at school he would be in huge trouble? Am I being unreasonable?

I've got two daughters and they have had far more difficulty socially with little girls than little boys. Boys can be far more straight down the line and far less bitchy than girls. They seem to be more open with their friendships.

Boys don't tend to have those "your not coming to my party" or "you can't play with us, you have a pony-tail and we have plaits" conversations that seem to be a part of the lives of girls.

That was in relation to the 'not worried about her friendships when she starts school' post.

My ds was not much of a willy waggler, but dd was very keen on the 'bum bum dance'. Purely because she knew it was rude. So not just a boy thing, a little kid thing.

Totally sympathetic about the smoke smell, it would make me very ragey but really it is perfectly normal behaviour, and from a not smoking around children point of view commendable. If it was raining of course they wouldn't want to get wet!

I hope that the planned conversation helps, but so long as the OP goes on thinking that any apologies aren't meant, and that the boys are little shits who are sexually harassing her daughter then it's really not going to end well.

A bigger more solid fence so as to provide more separation would solve most of the OP's problems (seems odd to only have a 5ft fence given the previous neighbours complaints about balls, although this makes me wonder if the fence/wall is actually much lower as three year olds generally don't throw very high).

Funny how both the last neighbours and the new ones have been "difficult". I had a friend like that years ago, she couldn't understand how she attracted awful friends who would eventually shit on her. Then so did I apparently -because I wouldn't childmind her dd for free 5 days a week after school so she could do overtime, bearing in mind I was working full time early shifts and having no kids of my own then.

She went on to tell her tales of woe (including the ones about mean old me) to somebody else.

I'm not saying this is necessarily always the case, but when there's a pattern perhaps it's time to try and look at the picture from another angle.

"I thought everyone knew this" Just about everyone & his mum seems to smoke where I live. Not ideal, but there are far worse evils! At least they're doing it outside (like recommended by nhs...).
You'd think that now the boot is on the other foot you'd be more understanding of your old neighbours being so snotty. But you still maintain that everyone else is the problem, even though you are the common denominator. You need to chill out and be more tolerant. Everyone is going to have different values and beliefs to you of what they think is acceptable. It's not up to you to enforce yours on your neighbours. Yabu.
But I hope it all works out, its not nice to have a bad vibe with neighbours. Why don't you have them over for a drink or something? Try to get to know them. If they don't want to know then no harm done but at least you've held out the olive branch.

Hello

Sounds positive that u r going to have a chat. The smoking thing would really really annoy me as cant stand the smell but I dont think I would have been rude enough to tell them where to smoke.

My boys are a handful. I let them play in backgarden today while I was trying to clean the house. A stone slinging match occurred so they were told off and that was just the fist of many today.

When other people come to tell me they did something naughy Im mortified but probably look like Im not bothered as Im trying to stay calm and not cry myself.

My boys only go round other peoples houses who have rufty toughty children as they would be a complete shock to a quiet child. Its really stressful having my boys as they play fight, push, hit. Iv constantly got them in the naughty step or other punishments but 5 mins later they are dojng the same thing.

You could offer to just have the 3 year old over from next door to play?

Unfortunately though if the boys are like mine when they are together there is lots of shouting, screaming, fighting its just what they do.

Smoking:

1 - passive smoking risks are a red herring as they are too slight in this context to matter really (I believe?), we should really be focusing on

2 - it is disgusting and selfish and offensive to inflict the smell of smoke on other people's homes, even though

3 - the smoker is doing "the right thing" because they know there is a risk to their children by smoking on them indoors. But still, it is still selfish to smoke outdoors over someone else's house and garden, even if it won't give their children cancer, and the implication that we want them to give their own children cancer is nonsense. We just want them to stop smoking over our houses and how they solve that is their problem.

1. Breathing is not optional. If your air has smoke in it, there is nothing you can do, no way of avoiding it, no way of not taking it in with every breath. If your neighbour wore vile aftershave that tainted your tap water you could drink bottled water. (Actually everyone would agree it was disgusting so the neighbour would have to stop, but still) Yet breathing is somehow different. Why?

Even the quiet boys in both my sons classes were disgusting at parties. Like a pack of wild animals and their mothers did nothing to make them behave or maybe it wasn't possible to get them to. So I think you should shut your window and stop being precious. You could have worse.

I have not read most of the thread but I think YANBU. There is a difference between children playing naked in their garden and deliberately exposing themselves, If I was the mother I would want to nip this in the bud ASAP, it is unsociable and just down right rude 5 year old or not. What If he did this to a girl at school? You think a parent wouldn't question it? I completely agree with you they are old enough to be taught some social manners and respect.

Completely agree with zut on the smoking thing. I would be unable to accept this if it was constant from my neighbours. I don't care how annoyed that makes some people. I don't smoke and don't want it around my Dd, certainly not coming through the window when she is asleep.

Joined the thread a bit late
Smoking in their own garden is annoying but there is nothing that you can do about it. They have every right to do so.
Stone throwing sounds like it has been sorted so let it go now.
Willy waving, assuming that the OPs version is the unvarnished truth and that her DD COULD in fact see over the 5 ft fence etc, then I would have been a bit put out tbh. I don't think that it is a case of "boys will be boys", I have 3 boys and none of them would have done this, despite being willy mad in private and if they had I would told them that it was not acceptable behaviour.
Having said that, OP, I think you will need to loosen up a bit as your DD gets older. Sending her to this exclusive girls school won't help.
Now I'm going to have to wait until Friday for an update, by which time we will be on the 3rd thread at least, and then we'll find out that it was all a wind up! certain details do make me wonder tbh

I find this thread a bit upsetting. The way the OP has gone about things makes her seem not super-charismatic. but everyone therefore thinks that the annoyances are fine. Makes it blindingly upsettingly obvious how much of life is a popularity contest.

Separately, on the willy thing. There is a clear distinction between "children are inclined to do x" and "we all have to put up with children doing x". I don't have boys, but those who do seem to be saying they all want to wave their willies around, at people (that is important - doing it at people, not just being naked, or idly willy-waggling, but a third thing, waving willies at people). Are we also saying that that is fine? That the fact that they are inclined to do it means that everyone has to put up with it? and if so at what general age does it become unacceptable? (please tell me it becomes unacceptable sometime. Please.)

If it were "pushing smaller children about if you fancy their toy" we wouldn't be hearing "they all want to do it, so it's fine". yes many children are inclined to do it, but we stop them and tell them they are not allowed to.

I love these threads where the pearl clutcher mums-of-boys get all hoity on other people's behalf.

Still, threads like these at least lead us to some sort of understanding as to why little willy flashing boys turn into vile teenage yobs and then dreadful men who think that a penis gives them power over women.

(PS Am mum of boy but not pearl owner)

It was the overtly sexualised language applied to the behaviour of small children that upset me- "exposing himself" for example- followed by bizarre suggestions to ring 101!

I find it a bit upsetting too Zut

I find all the accusations about how awful I am rather disconcerting. There are 21 houses in our close and I have always got on well with ALL the other neighbors. I was looking forward to having a young family next door - and was as welcoming as I could be when this family arrived. Went round with freshly baked scones and a jar of homemade jam the day they arrived - and loaned them a kettle because there's was missing. Invited the whole family for a BBQ... offered to take the other mum to the local tots group with us when the others go back to school and so on... I thought I was being as welcoming as I could be!

I really don't think many people would be delighted to have their house smell of smoke - it is a disgusting habit. As for the stones - people have been telling me I am disgusting for implying the boys threw the stone AT my daughter... but they did. I never said it was malicious - but I have a vulnerable new born and a small child - and the stone would still injure my children whether it was intentional or not - so I think I have every right to be concerned.

As for the willy-waving - it's not so much that that I think their behaviour is sexual - I think it is ANTI-SOCIAL and my main concern is that the mother thinks it is ok for her boys to bother my child, and that she doesn't need to step in and control them.

People here seem to be really judgemental and unnecessarily nasty. I know 3 boys must be a handful, but having a baby that is waking every 2 to 3 hours, and a 3 year old who is up at 6 every morning is no walk in the park either! Perhaps it will be easier after the summer holidays when the children are at school most of the time.

I don't understand what you mean Curlew

He was pulling down his short specifically to show my child his penis. What else would say other than he was exposing himself?

"As for the willy-waving - it's not so much that that I think their behaviour is sexual - I think it is ANTI-SOCIAL and my main concern is that the mother thinks it is ok for her boys to bother my child, and that she doesn't need to step in and control them."

Why did you describe it in overtly sexual terms then? And why do you think it's worse than the stone throwing? Which would have had me round there like a ballistic missile......

Ok. As a smoker who smokes outside YANBU if the smoke is coming in through your DD's window. 'Tis the reason I found a nice quiet spot away from open windows and as far from the fence as possible for an occasional smoke
The willy waggling.. Hmm. I have a boy and 2 girls. DS had a thankfully short phase of doing this at around the age of 3, he was usually trying to get some kind of reaction and got worse when he got the attention he wanted. Ignoring is the key. Turn away, don't mention it. In fact don't even acknowledge it, start talking about other things. They'll get bored I promise! It's attention seeking silliness for the most part.
I will mention in passing that DD had a phase of sitting stark naked on the windowsill... I had to be damn quick to catch her and cover her up! My poor but very understanding neighbour saw way more of my daughter than either of us wanted for about a month
YABU about them not being your sort of people. Give them a chance instead of judging their parenting.they may well turn into good friends that you can have a glass of wine or a brew and a chat with
YABU in general but I do think you've got a bit of a rough ride on here.

I don't think "exposing himself" is overtly sexual.
what it does imply is that the person was doing it deliberately, to get a reaction. when an adult does it this is pervy sexually aggressive behaviour. But the expression "exposing himself" is just a description of what the child did, doesn't include the implication of perviness in itself

And it is different from being naked or even playing with yourself, which are both things that someone just does, not necessarily "at" someone. It is the calling of the OP's child's name to do it that makes it unmistakably at someone (a detail admittedly missing from the OP but added later)

Everyone has gone bloody quiet now after my last post because no one wants to come back on and defend all the "boys will be boys" crap in the face of logic. So when exactly does it stop being fine and dandy to wave willies at people? If the man living next door came into his garden and said "Hey zut!" and then pulled his penis out of his shorts I think maybe I would call the police. Is that crazy? I think he is about 50.

a very amusing distraction from work....

I am struggling to believe that anyone can be quite so neurotic around young children. So keen to protect her perfect dd that she has deliberately chosen an all girls school with small classes? At what point is this child going to be allowed into the real world?

The neighbours do sound boisterous but the reaction has been so OTT that the new neighbour is very upset. What on earth was said in the confrontation?

IMO if the old neighbours were difficult and the new neighbours are as well, then the problem actually lies somewhere else.

Jennni. You change the story every time someone makes a valid point. You haven't been friendly by going next door and complaining all the time. You have no idea of the pressure of having 3 children that age. trust me one toddler and one baby is a walk in the park compared. All I can say is you'll earn!
Your lovely little girls private school could also lead to some of the worst subtle bullying children can do to each other. mixed schools (financially and socially) are much more balanced.
Are you going to be the parent who believes that their child won't lie to you or do horrid things to others because you told them not to ??

I would erect a bamboo sereen along the boundary. Plant a fast growing buddlia it will obscure the view in two years ( they grow like crazy things) and help filter the smoke.

Nothing much else you can do except move house.

Why did you describe it in overtly sexual terms then? And why do you think it's worse than the stone throwing? Which would have had me round there like a ballistic missile......

Curlew I was round there when they threw the stones - it was awful. I suffer from anxiety attacks and seeing a stone being hurled in the direction of my daughter and thump now inches away from her head was HORRIBLE.

I hoped that raising my concerns would make the mother read her children the riot act - and that they would know hence forth that they had to behave and not bother us anymore. However, that they are prepared with a day or two to sit in their garden, screaming at my DD and getting our their willies (which they must know is not very nice behaviour) demonstrates tome that she has no control over them, and that they think they can behave how they like.

It makes me think that more stone throwing or whatever might be on the cards? Wouldn't you think that?