To ask everyone not to ignore abusive parenting, including cursing a child in public.

[missmarplestmarymead]

I know some think it is unreasonable to intervene but in the light of the details we have heard today about the tragic Daniel Pelka, can we please all stick our noses in especially where they are not wanted.

Don't let abusive parents abuse their children on the street and either be too frightened to say anything or dream up possible excuses for their behaviour. hey will think they are getting away with it, especially if they can pull the wool over the eyes of social workers and teachers.

It really is our solemn duty not to look the other way.

My husband's family swear at each other all the time. Took me ages to realise that they could speak to each other like that and love each other because it wasn't normal to me.

I think I shall phone cs and tell them to start offering language modification course.

Because that will really help them to stop abuse especially in cases where children are being starved and beaten.

In fact lets fill up there time by reporting everyone we perceive to be not as good a parent as we are and the ones who are a bit abrasive in there communication. And the ones who don't dress there children in new matching outfits and don't buy clarks shoes.we could have a sw posted on the doors of Iceland with a stack of EPO's or looking in the shopping trolleys at tescos to spot value products and fags.

That will save the children

There are obviously a lot of people here brought up in very polite families where there is little or no swearing (as I was).

But honestly you need to remove the blinkers about how other people use language. A swear word is only a swear word because you percieve it as such. Now, I am not suggesting that children should become desensitised merely pointing out that people use language in different ways and that because a word is regarded as a swear word it doesn't mean it's being used as a form of abuse.

I know people who genuinely drop two or three swear words into every sentence.

Just using swear words ON ITS OWN does not make you a bad parent. The offence the words cause is after all a societal construct.

Also agree that linking this to cases such as Daniel, baby p etc is a bad move because the parents who carry out sustained and calculated campaigns like that Are covering their tracks at all times and probably don't put a foot out of place in public.

sirz wasn't claiming to be a perfect parent at all, now you put words in my mouth - known as gaslighting that - I just don't swear at my DC.
anna you agree then now? As another poster pointed out, it's just as abusive to say "You are a vile, horrible child" as it is to say "You are a little shit". yes it is JUST as abusive, no one said it wasn''t.

I did also put that you have the right to a different of opinion it just isn't mine but it sounds like I can't have my opinion.

Out of interest how would you feel if teachers for example spoke to your DC like that? or a stranger? or is it a privilidge reserved for yourself?

And what if DC in turn swore at someone else? - genuinely interested to know where the line would be drawn with that.

Nowhere is it suggested that Daniels mother or stepfather abused him in the street. The problem was that all the signs that he was being starved, beaten etc... were excused by his mothers very convincing explanations and lies, she even managed to convince medical professionals, this was a very intelligent, devious and manipulative pair of sociopaths and the problem was that the professionals involved didn't see through them.

The most endangered children are not being sworn at in the street because their abusers are too smart to get caught like that, the most dangerous will have everyone else convinced that their harmless and even good parents.

Abuse shouldn't be ignored but the answer is better trained professionals, not a more paranoid society.

I don't swear at DS, all I said was that it wasn't abusive to do so. Different people have different standards and you seem to be unable to accept that having different standards doesn't mean that a child is abused simply their parents do things differently.

To focus so much on use of language which you have decided is "abuse" you are very much belittling the seriousness of proper abuse.

Regardless of whether his parents swore at him or not, the fact that Daniel was being abused/neglected should have been obvious to those around him - neighbours, school, other parents at the school etc etc. He resembled a concentration camp victim at the time of this death.

So in the spirit of what the OP is saying, we all have a responsibility to report abuse/neglect where we see it or have reasonable grounds to suspect it.

We need to look close to home - friends, family - the children beaten and starved must have had grandparents, aunties, cousins... It's always so sad to hear an estranged family member say 'if only I'd gone over'. We do need to poke our noses in - but in the correct way - if that is the SS or police, but with evidence and facts.

We need more child welfare professionals. The cutbacks in education and CW is getting worse and worse, but it seems as if more children are at risk. As in the latest case of Daniel, the 'carers' of this child were sneaky, lying, selfish people who pulled the wool over many peoples' eyes. So many people must be wracked with guilt over the Daniel case.

I also think people don't have the smallest clue what CP and adult protection is like. On my case load at SS there would have been a few cases that could have ended in a death at any time. I had a relatively small case load. You manage them, worry about them, do what you can but ultimately, if all the people around the child or adult are saying the same reassuring things, they could be lying, how do you know? You do know that you have lots of cases where you KNOW everyone is not saying the same reassuring things and can actually do something about. Yes, every line of inquiry should be followed and this might have saved Daniel but there could be tens of potential Daniels on every SW's case load.

SWs have lots of dangerous cases that they carry and none of these are, 'person swore at child and no other concerns'. Most have lots of cases of children or adults that they know could end in a tragedy. That is the nature of the job.

People who say that an isolated case of sunburn or one observed incident of swearing at a child are 'abuse' may be right. The idea that SS have the time, workers, resources or support to do anything about these things is madness.

Next time you want to shout at someone in the street for swearing at their child, give money to a children's charity, vote for someone who doesn't want to slash and burn public services, volunteer somewhere, go round and offer to help your neighbour with their kids, do something that might help.

Wise words, Mrs TP.

swearing at your children isnt an indication of abuse

Rubbish.

verbal abuse in many ways is worse than physical, those scars never heal, and I speak from experience.

I hardly ever swear (except in print on MN!!!!) and certainly never swear at DC yes I tell them off but theres telling off and verbal ''you're a cunt'' type thing.

betterthanever (think thats posters name) made a good point in her first post.

and her latest post too!!

swearing isn't necessarily verbal abuse though, and verbal abuse can take place without swearing. You seem to be focusing on the wrong things.

Whilst i would cringe and feel desperately sorry for the child, an adult who can shout and swear at their child in public is not one I would be approaching for fear of what would happen. Far better to donate to childline or a charity that ploughs all the money into helping rather than paying directors etc.

As an adult, if another adult shouted and swore at me it would be abuse so if being done to a child its emotional abuse too.

I dont think most parents swear at their children just as most dont abuse them. SS do all they can, their will be mistakes but the majority of cases are handled well.

sirzy - you said - To focus so much on use of language which you have decided is "abuse" you are very much belittling the seriousness of proper abuse.

Just because someone isn't being starved to death or beaten does not mean they are not being abused.

Game puts it very well verbal abuse in many ways is worse than physical, those scars never heal, and I speak from experience.

Sadly I feel that it is fair to say this is something that is often misunderstood. Any abuse on any level is wrong in my eyes.

I hope in time people of both genders will realise this. Abuse almost always increases in magnitute so what may start as a quick comment, ends up turning into a more, a quick slap etc.

Swear words are called such and usually used due to the impact they have or the feeling that someone has for the other person. Said to an adult or child it is usually because the person saying its wants to get the other person to do something they want them to do or not do something they don't want them to do. It is also often used to intimidate and cause fear.

I am sure some who do it are not aware of the impact it has and the damage it can do, especially as the actions are picked up on and then repeated especially by DC - many do know exactly what they are doing and the impact it has on the other person.

YANBU. Just as long as you plan to be equally aware of the naice ham munching, Guardian reading trendies down the road, where the dad rapes the little boy whilst the mum is as ballet lessons with the little girl.

To judge someone as being abused by hearing parents swear at them once in a street is madness and does belittle the real abuse.

You can't take anything from such a snippet of family life.

You seem to focusing on all the wrong things instead of looking at the much bigger picture. Perhaps read some of the posts by professionals who work in this area to get a bit more idea of the reality of such things?

swearing isn't necessarily verbal abuse though, and verbal abuse can take place without swearing. You seem to be focusing on the wrong things. - correct, when someone says `Bl*dy brilliant they are not abusing someone and no one is saying that swearing is the only form of verbal abuse.
I don't think some posters inc. me are focusing on the wrong things.

The OP did not mean that if someone shopping with thier DC dropped a bottle of ketchup in the supermarket and went `oh shit' they should be reported to social services - and I am not saying that, saying a swear word in front of a DC isn't wrong but that is not abuse but NOT what the OP was talking about.

But the OP was talking about judging based on such a small part of the life of a stranger. That is impossible to do when it comes to things like swearing.

It may well be a one off `sirzy' but at that moment they were acting abusively. I haven't commented on if I would intervene - probably not (which may be cowardness on my part) unless I knew them or saw it regularly - I would then report it. I wouldn't be friends with someone who did it to thier DC all the time.

I used to live in a village in a shire county.

I knew a lot of people, some rich and some poor.
The rich Judge was well known for beating his wife and shouting abuse, including a full range of swear words, at his DCs. The DW was terrified of him.

Another (Family law) Judge and his DW actively disliked their DCs, who all had EDs.

The daughter of a retired Army Major told me her father used to scream abuse at her all through her childhood. She would cower terrified, sobbing on the floor.
To the outside world they were the perfect family.

Some of you naice people need to think outside the box.
Child abuse is across society.

Someone else objecting to the sugestion that most parents have sworn at their children - I have not and my sons are 14 and 15. Nor did my own parents swear at me ever. I'm sure there are many more families like ours.
Kids copy what they hear. I work in a community centre with children - the language coming from some of them is totally appalling. Just this week we've been out on day- trips and had to deal with children under 10 using "fuck" and "cunt". I know for a fact that their parents use these words constantly . It's not the kids fault they think its normal. Obviously we tell them its not appropriate and the looks from other parents at the park we were visiting certainly backed this up.
So its all very well swearing at and around your children but are you happy for your children to be using it too - even when in their teens? There is no doubt that other people make judgements about children and young people when they hear crude language.