To ask everyone not to ignore abusive parenting, including cursing a child in public.

[missmarplestmarymead]

I know some think it is unreasonable to intervene but in the light of the details we have heard today about the tragic Daniel Pelka, can we please all stick our noses in especially where they are not wanted.

Don't let abusive parents abuse their children on the street and either be too frightened to say anything or dream up possible excuses for their behaviour. hey will think they are getting away with it, especially if they can pull the wool over the eyes of social workers and teachers.

It really is our solemn duty not to look the other way.

It's all in the context. Children that look badly cared for, parents very under the influence (whether that is pot or alcohol) and aggressive language, whether that is swearing or not... Not good and should be dealt with. I'm lucky that I know a LOT of Police officers so they is always someone I can drop a text to for advice or help. Do I think a random stranger in a park telling people to stop is going to make the situation better? No. Do I think it might make it worse? Yes. It just doesn't really do anything. Professionals getting involved does help in a lot of cases.

I just had a look at the stats and it is interesting that Canada, where I live currently has a far higher incidence of child deaths from maltreatment than the UK, where I normally live. I have heard people swearing near or at their children masses in the UK and next to never in Canada.

People also forget that the choices when a child is in the system are limited. Everyone says that children should be removed from their parents care if things are bad. Children in care have a higher incidence of abuse, drug taking, violence, suicide, criminal behaviour, self harm etc. etc. than children not in care. Removing children doesn't solve anything. It may be the lesser of two evils for a child like Daniel but it is not a happy thing.

I am a teacher.
I have worked with children I am SURE are being abused. I have followed procedure and informed my CP co-ordinator, who has told SS who has followed it up. I know, on at least one of of these occasions, the SS visit meant the most hideous of hideous nights for the poor, poor baby I had in my Reception class and her mum. I know, that no matter how many times she told me about the awfulness of her life, and the times I cwtched her and tried to reassure her she was so loved and beautiful and wonderful and amazing, it will never have stopped what she saw and what happened to her.Eventually they were moved a zillion miles away. She was the most beautiful, kind, wonderful little girl and I will never stop wishing I could have done more.

I was trying to grab 5 minutes peace in the garden when dd called out from indoors, 'Muuuuum' for the thousandth time, making her thousandth whiny request that day (estimate).

The neighbours might have heard me hiss 'Fuck off' under my breath... DD wouldn't have, though. But it's a fine line.

Oh come on, I think everyone on here is reasonable and intelligent enough to realise that a mother saying "Fuck off Mummy's busy" is although not great parenting is not the same as a mother aggressively screaming "Fuck off you useless little cunt!"

I wonder if people who have some professional experience in this area are actually desensitised to the awfulness of the parent's words and actions, as long as they are not hitting or starving their children they are deemed as 'good parents'

OP, I agree with you. I work in a profession where welfare of the child is a primary consideration. I feel that as a society we absolutely need to stand up for the rights of children and also be seen to be doing so.

So if some of these poor children are daily given the sense that their parent's vile verbal or physical abuse of them is not acceptable or warranted then this must be a very important thing for them to understand about themselves. And perhaps allow them to confide in these other interested and concerned adults, not the person on the street perhaps but perhaps a teacher or school dinner lady... I guess if poor little Daniel had been able to tell someone just what was going on at home then that person would have had to get SS involved and something might have been done...

But nobody has said people shouldn't intervene when they have genuine concerns for a child's safety. People have said that needs to be done properly not just a complete stranger having a go at them in the street. If you have concerns about a child report them to the people who are in a position to make a real change in someone's life.

Wasn't the point of the case with Daniel Pelka that the parents were polite and kind in public and abusive behind closed doors?

I haven't seen ANY reporting that they had be found to be 'shouting at their children in public' so what is the point of this thread please?

The point of this thread is so the op and others can feel smug and happy with themselves as they are under the illusion they have the power to prevent all child abuse ever, just by shouting at someone.

The issue is with social services, we had an investigation (the munro investigation) after Baby P and it was supposed to bring real changes to social work, and it is, slowly. But its only this year that it is bringing changes to the education of social workers and there is still the enormous battle to face of the existing, overworked and stressed out social workers who will seek to close a case as quickly as possible rather than investigate it because of the sheer amount of other cases they have.

Then there is the issue with funding, now I totally agree with them cutting the funding for 1st year students in social work because actually people should not be picking the course because it comes with a £4500 incentive but the changes in funding to the actual job are scary.

But anyway, this case is NOT about people being cowboys, this is about better training and cooperation with teachers, so that they can actually be a part of the process rather than just an informer. Who better will know the child and the succession of injuries? This should be the start of any investigation and then further investigations should come from that, this quick phonecall and let SS deal with it culture has got to stop because it does not work.

MrsKeith thats so sad, because actually what these people should be doing is donating to the NSPCC or volunteering some of their time to disadvantaged families, not shouting at people in the street! Its like a forum version of 'click like and save this childs life' it doesnt work that way, you actually have to DO something proactive.

That's exactly what it is. 'Share this picture to stop child abuse' mentality.

Some people refuse to think what happens beyond what they might witness on the street.

Don't ignore, by all means. But always pass on your concerns. Don't be the person in the news saying you thought something wasn't right but done nothing about it. Be the person saying I reported them several times, something should have been done.

But don't be naive enough to think shouting at someone is the best thing you can do.

Social services are under-resourced, and the cuts in local government budgets won't help. Energy would be better directed lobbying for changes to provide more resources and help social workers, schools, doctors etc do what they need to do, than confronting parents directly.

Sorry Altinkum, but I don't actually think that most parents swear at their children

I am sorry to hear of your abusive childhood at the hands of your father... but please don't try and make out that swearing at children is normal or acceptable.

You may be happy to do so, a lot of parents aren't.

I didn't allow her to swear at her children, I'm not her jailer. She is an adult and all SS and agencies should be worried about is whether children are abused or neglected. swearing at children in my opinion IS abuse.

This is exactly how children slip through the net - you say you don't `allow' should we say enable then.

It is a broad subject and I agree that some parents can be very poliet and not swear/shout/hit children in public but the abuse is carried out behind closed door. I am generally interested to know from those with SS working experience - where is the line drawn between police and SS involvement?

Swearing at your children does not equate to child abuse

in the same way that leaving a child to CIO does not equate to child neglect.

A child would rather live in a home with their parents who swear at them sometimes than in a childrens home i assure you.

So what do you want better every childs whos parents have ever sworn at them to be reported to SS for them to 'deal with'? lets stretch SS even thinner on the ground meaning they haven't got the man power to help the children who are really at risk?

Lets make the parent who has a "oh won't you just shut up moment" and dares to say something they know they shouldn't really have but then has a second calms down and carries on the same as the parents who actually do abuse their children why don't we!

A child would rather live in a home with their parents who swear at them sometimes than in a childrens home i assure you. no one said otherwise but it doesn't mean that swearing at children isn't abuse, of course is it abuse. If you had a DP/DH that swore at you all the time would you see that as acceptable? what lessons is the child learning on how you treat people as adults?
Children are vulnerable and they most love thier parents no matter what, most still do when being physcially abused too - it does not mean it is ok for parents to do it.

I am really glad that some people think that abuse is swearing at your kids. It means that for the most part, Social services do a great job.

sirz I don't want people to think it is acceptable to swear at children because it is not - I don't think it is acceptable to swear at adults either for that matter. It's abusive and agressive and show a lack of intellect, if there are no consequences to it then it often exscalates as it is seen as ok. It's lazy parenting - discipline and punishment are to me two very different things - swwearing at a child does not help them develop thier behaviour for later life - it is a quick fix solution to something that is irritating the parent.
I know that I just would not want to be around parents who did this - if those parents find they have no friends they may modify thier actions - that costs nothing.
We can't sit by and enable people to be abusive, just because SS don't have enough money the cart seems to be before the horse.
On the other hand you are entitled to your opinions and if that extends to you feeling it is ok to swear at children then that is what you think, I don't think like that and I don't my DC to be victim to the abuse from the DC who learn it is ok to do that in later life.

Challenging abusive parents in the street will achieve absolutely nothing for the poor child, except make the situation worse behind closed doors. The challenger may feel good about doing their good deed for the day but for that individual child no good can come of it.

Swearing in itself is not abusive. As another poster pointed out, it's just as abusive to say "You are a vile, horrible child" as it is to say "You are a little shit". They are just words and every other aspect of the parent/child relationship is what is important. You can be still be a good parent and swear at your kids.

Wow better it must be hard for you being such a perfect parent, and person in heneral!

Seriously what is the difference saying to a child "will you shut up for a minute" and "will you fucking shut up for a minute" in exactly the the same tone and manner? Nothing other than one includes a word that society has decided is 'bad' for some reason.

It may not be nice to swear, but to start labelling it as abuse simply minimises what abuse really is.

I agree absolutely, Sirzy.

As Filee said, Daniel's mother behaved convincingly well in front of teachers, GPs etc. So, saying that reporting parents to prevent cases like this is rather pointless.

I cannot understand how no one professional stepped in though. Maybe I don't know how the system works, but it didn't work, did it??