To ask everyone not to ignore abusive parenting, including cursing a child in public.

[missmarplestmarymead]

I know some think it is unreasonable to intervene but in the light of the details we have heard today about the tragic Daniel Pelka, can we please all stick our noses in especially where they are not wanted.

Don't let abusive parents abuse their children on the street and either be too frightened to say anything or dream up possible excuses for their behaviour. hey will think they are getting away with it, especially if they can pull the wool over the eyes of social workers and teachers.

It really is our solemn duty not to look the other way.

[mumthetaxidriver]

Just to add to this - I do agree that whilst I hate hearing parents swearing at children it isn't necessarily a sign of abuse. It's simply how some people choose to speak - sadly.

[foreverondiet]

Not sure what you can do wrt stranger in street, but if its a kid at your kids school you can anonymously report to social services. My friend who is a GP said she thinks the problem is that a) no one thinks the buck stops with them and b) reluctance of social services to take child from parents even when evidence of abuse / drug taking etc.

Btw I do agree with previous posters - fine to lose rag with child but never ever fine in any circumstances to be abusive to them. Eg fine to say: "B" you are driving mad, behaviour is awful, I'm really angry with you. Not fine to say "B" you fucking cunt etc

[Trigglesx]

It's a funny old thing, this argument. My parents never swore at us. They shouted sometimes, but hated swearing. People thought we were such well behaved children and what a nice family. At home, we got spanked with a belt (and other things) and told we were stupid and not good enough, then expected to pretend it didn't happen. I guarantee you that NOBODY knew this was going on in our home. I guarantee there were never any social services reports. No investigations. Nothing. Because nobody saw it. Ever. And we certainly weren't stupid enough to talk about it then.

Whereas someone I know is quite loose with her language. Loves her kids and is wonderful with them, however, she swears in front of and occasionally at them. Would I report her for that? No way. Why? Because I have a very good perspective on the difference.

[holidaybug]

There seems to be a lot of focus on this thread on the issue of swearing, bit of a red herring IMO and it is distracting I think from the key point of OP's thread i.e don't look the other way, make it our business.

[MorrisZapp]

Of course swearing at your kids is crap parenting. I've sworn, vociferously, about my kid. And near my kid. But at him? No. Swearing is part of my life but I'm an adult, and as such I know how to restrain myself near small kids. My dp called DS a little shit the other day, and I was pretty upset by that, although I understand the frustration etc that needs an outlet.

I think that referring to a mother who swears regularly at her kids as a 'great mum' is PC gone mad, forgive that hideous DM-ism. Only a social worker could be so desperate to say good things about 'challenged' people that they flag up the most paltry positives. Basically, this mother turns up. She is teaching her children obscenity but hey, she feeds and clothes them so isn't she great. Objectively speaking, no, that's not really enough.

If I came on here saying that my DP called me a fucker, a cow, a fat bitch or whatever I'd be told that he was an abuser. But apparently swearing is just another, equally valid way of expressing feelings when it's small children on the receiving end. 'What the fuck' indeed.

[mumthetaxidriver]

morriszap I agree completely. I have worked with a 13 yr old boy who used all these words to his mother. Interestingly she never swore at her son ( we knew her well) but he mixed with other (younger) local children whose parents constantly swore. Not a good situation at all.
I also agree that this has distracted from the point - we must all continue to be vigilant for signs and report through the correct channels.

[vivizone]

Of course it needs to be challenged, just like this woman being challenged in Walmart

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qc4YGiu185g#at=65

[Trigglesx]

I think that video is ridiculous. The mum in question wasn't shouting until the person filming confronted her - and then she was shouting at the filmer, not the child. The mum wasn't paying attention because her phone rang, she told her child to sit down in the trolley and then moved the trolley while distracted, causing the child to fall. She then checked the child and was rubbing her head to make her feel better. What did you expect the mum to do - burst into tears, hold her child and wail uncontrollably that she'd fallen? Or check her, see that she's okay, rub her head a bit with her arm around her to calm her down, and make light of it so the child doesn't get upset.... like many parents would do. Although yes, most parents have the brains not to put children that old in the back of the trolley and allow them to stand up, that child is also old enough to know better - she's what, 8 or so??

The woman filming actually started shouting first and was acting VERY aggressive and honestly I would not have reacted well to that as a mum either. I don't know many who would - if you were distracted and your child fell out of the trolley in the store and someone ran up to you filming on their camera and shouting at you, how would YOU react? I'd be willing to be you wouldn't be very happy with them.

And no... sometimes challenging them is not the way to go. If there is physical abuse and you know you can safely keep them there until police show up, then yes, challenging is probably okay. But if it's not physical abuse just shouting, you're better off noting details and reporting it so it can be followed up. Otherwise the child could likely get it in the neck when home, because the parent will blame the child for the embarrassment - "look what happened because of you."

And those of you saying "show me stats on that"... don't be ridiculous. It's common sense. And having worked in law enforcement, I've seen the reports and statements from victims that say just that. That's enough evidence for me. If you don't believe it, go talk to someone that works in child protection who can tell you the same thing.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

I think its entertaining just how many people think they are so great because they don't swear.

a huge amount of those parents are just as rubbish at times as every other person in the world, none of you are Mary poppins you just think you are.

[MorrisZapp]

I don't think I'm Mary Poppins. I'm on anti depressants and often consider myself a failure at parenting. But calling your kids fucking wee shites is just pointlessly shit parenting, isn't it? I hear this stuff regularly on buses etc and while I don't consider it abuse, I think it is desperately sad that some people can't see anything wrong with it. Presumably because their own parents called them fucking wee shites too.

[mumthetaxidriver]

Certainly no Mary Poppins here either. But just concern about kids getting mixed messages about what is acceptable. At home they hear words that are not socially acceptable so at school and out and about if they use them they get in trouble.
Tell me that if you had an 8 year old child to play and you overheard him referring to someone as a " fucking cunt" you would have him again - I bet not - Mary Poppins or not!

[Posterpreviouslyknownas]

I cannot believe some of the self righteous stupidity I have read on this thread. What do you imagine is going to happen when you confront an abusive parent?

Let me tell you my story..I WAS one of these parents. I swore at my elder child in public, hit her. WHY? Because I could not cope. I desperately wanted to stop. I searched the phone book for someone I could call but there was nothing. If I went to the GP or SS and fessed up, I think my kids would have been taken away.

It started when my second child was born when my elder child was 3. I had had PND when i had her after a traumatic birth which I concealed. The elder one would not stop whining and playing up continually. I had to go to work in the evenings when DH came home - I had to go back to work when baby was 4 weeks old - I had to prepare ALL the meals, express milk. I had no money I was constantly exhausted so lashed out. I wasn't entitled to a nursery place because I was middle class and working. I had to work because we couldn't pay rent otherwise. We couldn't claim HB. Live in London and not entitled to social housing. I had one pair of shoes, one pair of trousers and 3 shirts all my other clothes had holes. Both DH and I had low paid jobs. Couldn't afford proper food for adults,stuff at Xmas even an ice lolly in the park.

Eventually child 1 got a nursery place. Things got better I stopped hitting her. DH never knew. I could easily have killed her. Next time you feel self righteous about an abusive parent think what her life must be like. I sometimes see parents like me in supermarkets and shops, worried about money, not bring able to buy their kids stuff and feeling ugly, fat and inadequate. Looked down on by the snooty who feel they are so perfect.

If you want to intervene try and support these wretched women not abuse them more - many including me had an abusive childhood themselves and know what they are doing is wrong but don't know how to stop. My children are now teenagers and happy. Child 1 does not seem to remember the abuse but I constantly feel guilty as I should.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

If a child in my house used words like that,I would very nicely explain to them that in this house we don't do that.

I would not consider it to be there fault so it would not impact on any further invitations, I would just assume they came from a household where swearing was used in casual conversation lots do.

[PresidentServalan]

But people can report abuse when they see it, it doesn't mean that SS actually does anything about it. And to the OP who said that things wouldn't get any worse for the kid if the parent was confronted - how do you know that? All you are likely to get by confronting the parent is a smack in the mouth - how will that help an abused child?

[MorrisZapp]

Posterprevious, that's a horrible story and most people would sympathise. But children's welfare always comes before that of adults, as they can't speak for themselves or make choices.

Most people who hit their kids and swear at them will simply be repeating their own upbringing, and absolutely they should be supported in changing.

But for most of us, the quickest way we can help kids who we worry might be neglected etc, is to get SS involved. What else can a stranger do?

[Posterpreviouslyknownas]

If you see this in the street are you really going to ring the police or SS or just abuse the woman involved who already is abused and knows damn well she is wrong.

Frankly the causes are abusive childhoods, mental illness, drug or alcohol abuse and poverty.

I would have liked to have someone to call or go to without the threat of my kids being taken away or being judged as a bad parent. 99% of the time I was OK. Most people try desperately hard to be good parents. Being told I am an awful person in the street won't help, a kind word or deed might.

[NutcrackerFairy]

Poster, I think you are quite courageous in sharing your story here.

But if you knew what you were doing was "damn wrong" why did you not try to seek help or support, particularly if your feelings were so strong you feel you could have killed your daughter? You didn't want your child 'taken away from you', you didn't want your husband to know... I imagine you were suffering and feeling absolutely awful. But the reality is you were the adult and your three year old daughter bore the brunt of your out of control feelings.

Just because people are concerned about child welfare it does not make them snooty or mean that they think they are perfect parents... I have a lot of empathy for parents living with stress, extreme tiredness and lack of support... I have been there myself. However if things were so bad that I was hurting my children I would want someone to take them away to where they would be safe.

[Posterpreviouslyknownas]

As I stated up thread I did not know WHERE to turn. I sat one evening looking through the phone book, desperately trying to find help. The only option that I could see was turning my elder child over to SS and they would have taken both of them. I also considered handing over my baby as my elder child would be devastated going into the care system. I know people who have beem through it. Most likely as white non SN children they would have been adopted and i would never had seen them again. There needs to be a safe place where people can admit their mistakes and be supported through them not condemned and have their kids taken away. When my daughter was given a place at nursery 9-3, I could cope and I stopped assaulting her.

[Posterpreviouslyknownas]

Nutcracker
The point is there was no support for me to access. That IS the problem. I don't condone anyone in this situation but I can understand how they feel. You don't have any idea how it feels, sorry! It is not just feeling tired or a normal stress. It is a type of mental illness. I was able to conceal it from everyone because I am white with a middle class accent - there must be many others like me.

Being tutted at, abused in the street or condemned does not solve the problem.

[CoffeeOne]

Children aren't removed from people who ask for help. It's an absolute last resort (or an immediate temporary measure). Child in need support plans coordinated by SS can go on for years if needed.

[Goldenbear]

To name call your child with a certain 'attitude' is often meant to humiliate a child, belittle them and that makes it emotional abuse. Sadly, this country is not especially progressive in it's attitude towards child protection and phoning SS would probably not help in any way.

Swearing and name calling are harmful to children in another way as frequently being exposed to this kind of language normalises it. Normal conversational language that can be used to communicate in the wider world is not full of profanities and indeed is not tolerated in most work contexts, especially those that are rewarded highly and not associated with a life of poverty. Whether you think it's twee or judgemental is irrelevant, it is fact that a dialogue littered with swear words and abusive name calling is associated with being 'rough'. It is very harmful for children in that sense because on the whole it keeps them locked into that cycle of poverty. Posters will protest with claims of working in professional or highly paid jobs where swearing is acceptable. My response to that would be A- your are lying or B- you're in a position of power already and swearing and name calling is part of an extensive vocabulary, I.e it is not your ONLY vocabulary.

There is no doubt that it is harmful to a child, to direct at them a continous tirade of verbal abuse. It is emotionally abusive and normalises language that used regularly in isolation has 'rough' connotations. This in itself is harmful to a child If they are already stuck in a poverty striken situation.

[Goldenbear]

The priority has to be the child every time but it is not in this country, so people don't get their children taken away when in some cases it is essential for the safety of that child. Criminal age of responsibility is 10 in England, one of the lowest in Europe and yet we do not protect children from assault until they're 18.

With any assault or crime against an adult you wouldn't automatically care for the needs of the perpetrator of the crime first. This is not the case for children, when they're victims of physical assault or mental abuse we provide support for the adults, worry about their needs, how can we support the instigator of the abuse- this isn't right.

[Goldenbear]

Keanu Williams was another child, only 2 who was failed by the system, beaten to death. People saw him be sworn at and hit but know one intervenes because it is a 'snapshot' and smacking ISN'T illegal. Assault on a child isn't illegal- its fucking barbaric! This 'Mother' got 'support' and went on a 'parenting skills' course but he is still beaten to death. There is something seriously at fault with a system that prioritises an abusive adult over a 2 year old.

[Posterpreviouslyknownas]

Coffeeone - yes children are taken away from parents who ask for help which is why I didn't dare to ask for any.

Goldenbear it is fine to blether on like a textbook but you don't have the faintest idea what it is like to be in this situation. What do you suggest taking hundreds of thousands of kids into the care system which is also abusive?