AIBU to think this is bad advice? (Re. Bullies)

[Angora831]

I've read a lot of threads here and on other Internet hangouts about bullies. Invariably, someone will advise teaching your children 'witty' comebacks to show up the bully. Speaking as a teacher with a few years at the coalface behind me, I'd just like to say THIS NEVER WORKS. This is because:

A) the comeback is clearly practiced at home with Mum. Children aren't stupid and they pick up on this.

B) Bullies are generally clever and charismatic children, and every time I've witnessed a child retorting with an obviously rehearsed comeback, the bully is able to verbally outwit them and make them look small and stupid. Horrid to watch, must be more horrid for the victim (and because I know what Mumsnet is like and where this thread will go, please rest assured that I do punish bullying behaviour when I witness it).

I'm not saying i have all the answers to bullying, but based on my own experience (and my highly scientific poll of the staff room before we broke up last week), the 'hilarious comeback' approach just doesn't work.

Grumpy, you are not a bully. Lashing out verbally or physically as a reaction to being bullied does not make you a bully. x

OP, yes stopping bullying before it starts is great but does not happen. I've plenty of experience of different schools and have never found one where there is no bullying.

Picking on a sibling (which is usually a 2 way sibling thing imo) is not the same as bullying.

I have never bullied anyone. I have never sought to make someone feel bad about themselves (though I'm sure I have unintentionally). A bully seeks to intimidate and belittle with intent.

The only success I've ever seen with bullying is teaching the bullied child to shrug, say "whatever" and then walk off. It gives the bullies little to feed off, it stands a chance of wrong-footing them, and it gives the bullied child a feeling of control over the situation.

I completely disagree with you, especially the "clever and charismatic" bit. All the bullies I ever encountered either when I was at school or work myself or kids that tried to give my DCs a hard time, were thick as a plank with self esteem issues.

The witty comebacks I gave my children to taunts such as "you're smelly" were "nah, I think your nose is too close to your arse" or "you're ugly" was met with "are you looking in that mirror behind me?" worked wonders. The other kids picked up on it and used them to good effect and the insidious nasty remarks stopped as a result.

MY DS1 seems to be a having a reasonable amount of success with retorts to the type of bully who uses indiscriminate, not-very-bright digs as people, rather than the concerted type who focusses on one person.

This is a Secondary School.

The key here is these kinds of bully aren't very quick, and my DS (who has been bullied before), has the confidence and support of other friends

Trying to teach witty comebacks to children who feel very unconfident is much harder

X post cushtie

I think we agree about the type of bullying this works with

There are cleverer, charismatic (although God knows why) bullies

I also wanted to add, there are different sorts of bullying, and different sorts of bullies.

Oh, and also, twatting someone just isn't an option for some children. My DS1 does not have it in him, I don't think.

Yup, we're on the same page Jamie

Ds1 hit a bully back and that solved the problem, ds2 tried the same and was punched to the floor and had his head stamped on (he was 7) Ds2 really didn't have it in him, I was surprised he resorted to hitting.

Neither of the bullies were particularly bright or charismatic

My youngest (now 13 & going into yr9) was bullied when he was in reception,

I did the 'tell the teacher' line - didn't work.

I went into school and spoke to the teacher and was told that the other boy was jealous of my child for being a better footballer so maybe my child should stop playing football at playtime... Errmmm never gonna work!

So I told him, as long as he did it properly the 1st time, he would never have to do it again, but told him to hit the bully as hard as he could on the end of his nose (I was thinking that that horrible watery eyed feeling would be enough to put anybody off) I got a phone call that day to say that he had broken the boys nose (I was mortified) but it has given my son the confidence to stand up for himself and he has never been bullied since!

I did feel bad as they were only little, but not as bad as the helpless feeling of my son coming home from school everyday upset over being punched and kicked!

I chose a school for my boys based on the bullying policy. while it isnt written this way in the handbook, they basically use varying levels of shame, humiliation and embarrassment to deal with bullies. The school have a student council with 2 children from each year and 2 teachers, and the children swap each half term. its a small school so they all get a go and know how it works.

The bully has to explain what happened and why they did what they did. the children then decide, with guidance from the teachers what form the apology should take, from what parents of the older children have said, it is really effective as its really embarrassing having to stand up in assembly and explain yourself.

dear god - your son broke a five year old's nose?

If ignoring worked, I'd have been bullied a lot less than I was. I ignored comments, I never gave a rise. I ignored being hit, unless you count crying. From "bottom infants" to Y9.

I think we have to be so careful that when we think we are empowering children to take care of themselves, we are not going over the line into making it all their responsibility.
Grumpyoldbat, I am sorry you are so sad and I recognise what you say about "deserving" it. You do NOT deserve bad treatment. From anyone. Please get help.

This is what I mean - while I think children should be allowed to be sarcastic or even violent to repel bullies, let's not forget that to say this can be read as implying that it is in their power to choose to be bullied or not - that if they get it right, they will not be bullied; but if they are still being bullied, then they are getting it wrong, and it is their fault.

It is not their fault. it is not their responsibility. It is our responsibility to create safe environments for children.

I agree with that curryeater

Angora,

I think your OP was strange, especially from a teacher. Some bullies are clever and charismatic, most are not. They are just people with the right combination of strength and confidence (or fake confidence) to flourish in the "Lord of the Flies" type environment which school can be, at least some of the time.

I do think that bullying is a spectrum and excluding people from friendship groups etc is not necessarily bullying. However, when one sees or experiences real bullying, it is easy to see it for what it is. Again, I do think that bullying is a dynamic between the bully and the victim and one can help victims change the dynamic. On the other hand, it does not always work and the onus is really upon the school to deal with the bully.

There are no easy solutions but to describe bullies as "clever and charismatic" shows far too much respect for them and won't help with dealing with them properly. They need to be seen and treated as the little cowardly shits that they are.

bullying is a spectrum ... I don't think there's anyone ... who has never bullied someone

All true. What strikes me as a little off-key about your posts is that you seem to be aiming for a world of pure harmony. The reality is that aggression is a healthy part of the spectrum of human behaviour. While becoming socialised, our children need to try out various aggressive and defensive stances. Sports are pretty much about formalising this, but social interaction is mainly off-the-cuff interactions occurring in unexpected ways.

Eye-rolling, face-pulling, backchat, etc aren't bullying per se; they're 'squaring up' activities. A person who didn't even know how to do those things would be socially inadequate. A person who responds inappropriately to these situations will be bullied, and very likely bully too.

I'd like to point out that only one of my little anecdotes involved actual violence. In all other cases, a meaningful threat of violence has sufficed. Displaying force/power is another element of social aggression. We all do it all the time, in many subtle ways. Children, still learning, aren't so subtle. In teaching them how to select and use defensive tools - including violence and threatening behaviour - we help to prepare them for more sophisticated battles in adult life.

What strikes me as a little off-key about your posts is that you seem to be aiming for a world of pure harmony

I don't think anyone would aim for that - you can't expect everybody to like you/behave perfectly all the time. However a lot of bullying at school is a result of people exercising prejudice (not tolerating difference) and exercising power through casual abuse. I think a definition of a sophisticated adult is that they have self knowledge and can spot when they are resorting to this way of thinking (Am I really judging this person fairly? Am I belittling somebody or controlling somebody just because I can?) and change their behaviour.

Managing bullying is about teaching all children to behave in the society in which we want to live (which perhaps doesn't exist always in the UK, but certainly doesn't exist in some parts of the world where oppression and prejudice aren't questioned), whether those children have a tendency towards occupying the role of bully or victim.

I think its an ongoing job which will always be part of teaching children.

I have been known to suggest 'fuck off' as the answer to 'you're gay/you're ugly/your mum is a slag' etc etc.

Short and sweet.

YY, merrymouse. But casual prejudice is an unsophisticated, childish type of bullying. we can expect children to behave childishly. We teach them not only to self-examine, but also to self-defend; you missed out half the equation.

In adult life, when the power games tend to be less overt, the most effective defence is still counter-attack, albeit in a more elegant manner. Children who were never taught how, grow into adults who still can't.

Along with quite a few other posters on this thread, I can attest that my learned strategies - dignified silence, sweet understanding, and/or self-justification - led me to serious emotional damage from being bullied as an adult.

We have four instinctive threat responses: Fight, Flee, Freeze, Fawn. Why would we teach young people to favour only three, rejecting the first?

I think you might want to look at your definition of "bullying". I've never heard anyone refer to bullying in the same way you have, I have always heard it used to mean an ongoing campaign of nasty behaviour aimed at a person.

Oh yes, you have to teach the victim as well.

However, I think physically fighting back only works when the bullying is based on physical power, not mental bullying, and if you are actually stronger than your aggressor. Of course if somebody hits you you hit them back harder - but what if you can't?

Also, as mentioned before, some bullies pick on others verbally until they lash out, and then blame the victim.

I think the biggest defence a victim has is to know that they are in culture where bullying won't be tolerated, but where they also feel empowered in themselves to say no, because the behaviour isolates the bully more than the victim. (Maybe like lunar1's example.)

I agree with Angora about behaviour on line.

I think the same 'pack mentality' that leads people to follow stronger posters on a thread and jump on somebody with an opposing view point leads children to want to fall in line with the leading 'clique' and create outcasts.