AIBU to think this is bad advice? (Re. Bullies)

[Angora831]

I've read a lot of threads here and on other Internet hangouts about bullies. Invariably, someone will advise teaching your children 'witty' comebacks to show up the bully. Speaking as a teacher with a few years at the coalface behind me, I'd just like to say THIS NEVER WORKS. This is because:

A) the comeback is clearly practiced at home with Mum. Children aren't stupid and they pick up on this.

B) Bullies are generally clever and charismatic children, and every time I've witnessed a child retorting with an obviously rehearsed comeback, the bully is able to verbally outwit them and make them look small and stupid. Horrid to watch, must be more horrid for the victim (and because I know what Mumsnet is like and where this thread will go, please rest assured that I do punish bullying behaviour when I witness it).

I'm not saying i have all the answers to bullying, but based on my own experience (and my highly scientific poll of the staff room before we broke up last week), the 'hilarious comeback' approach just doesn't work.

Pom my DD is so much smaller than her and tbh, far too soft anyway!

my bully wasn't charismatic.
she could barely string two sentences together but was built like a brick shithouse and three times the size of me.
my mother went to the school and her parents house for nine months and bugger all was done except me being kept in at break and lunch and being told I must be doing something to antagonize them!
by the time it stopped(after my older sister from the secondary school next door got hold of the ring leader outside the primary school gates and threatened to paste her face along the pavement) I had bald spots all over my head where the girl used to swing me around by my hair.
my school was useless at stopping bullying.

As someone who went to many schools, and believe me when I say that starting each one was a unique kind of hell from 4 years old, as someone who was intelligent and witty enough to verbally decimate bullies, but was ignored by teachers because of their perceptions, the only thing that worked with bullies was to be physically stronger.

The problem as I have always seen it is that these 'intelligent and charismatic' children are found as amusing by their teachers as they are by their peers.

I remember being at school surrounding by bullies who were asking me if I could knit.

I responded "Yes, you've got nits!"

They really didn't get it, and still kept bullying me.

Mmm. This brought back a really vivid memory of hearing two of my teachers discussing how so-and-so was a 'handful' but also had the other children 'eating out of her hands, ha ha!' because she was such a funny little character.

She was a socking great bully, and the rest of us weren't eating out of her hands and didn't think she was funny. We were just scared and we knew you were meant to laugh at her being funny.

I wouldn't think much of a teacher who decided all bullies were 'charismatic children', TBH. Are you sure you're not just seeing a manipulative child?

My DS1 once mocked a little girl at his school after care who has SNs.

Fortunately for him her mum came in and overhead just at the end of the meanness. She tore shreds off him apparently.

When I got there later, the after care staff wanted to let me know what had happened, apologise for the fact that it happened at all etc.

My response to DS was 'did you cry when the other Mum yelled at you?' He said 'Yes'. So I said 'Good, now you know what it is like when someone stronger than you is mean to you and you are lucky it was her that saw it and dealt with it and not me'.

You don't need violence necessarily to shut it down, but strong adult figures around who won't put up with any shit from bullies is certainly a good starting point.

When schools have effective anti-bullying systems and sanctions in place, and the teachers are highly proactive about identifying and sorting out problems in the initials stages, then a culture of dominance and bullying doesn't develop.
But once you've used your Big Voice and made your objections clear.
Tried to walk away from trouble.
Told an adult about what's going on.
Been through the 'No Blame approach' bullying strategies.
Sometimes all that's left is swift, explosive, unambiguous violence.
DS was an explosive Aspie. No one bullied him. His friend was a flappy Aspie who was relentlessly picked on until he made friends with DS in the summer of Y8, then suddenly all the bullying stopped. Because the consequences were now too severe.
5 years later, they are still friends. DS hasn't thumped anyone in years.

I'm not saying i have all the answers to bullying, but based on my own experience (and my highly scientific poll of the staff room before we broke up last week), the 'hilarious comeback' approach just doesn't work.

I'm also a teacher and I have seen "witty retorts" work. This approach did work for my DS. But the comebacks weren't rehearsed they were of his own invention, perhaps that's why. The bullies he encountered certainly weren't of the clever or charismatic variety, quite the reverse. They were inarticulate mini thugs.

He got a reputation for having a smart mouth and the thugs left him alone after being made to look stupid in front of their friends who happily turned on the bully and laughed at him.

"Bullies are generally clever and charismatic children"

In DD's case it was true and in many cases it is true. That is why so many bullies get away with their unacceptable behaviour for so long. That is why so many husbands/partners of women who suffer abuse from them get away with it because they are clever and manipulative. And, in my experience many of them are "charismatic". After all Hitler and Margaret Thatcher were considered "charismatic"

DD's school takes a zero tolerance stance against bullying. They know it happens and don't brush it under the carpet. When DD was bullied the school were very supportive.

The only thing I ever saw work was Hitting back.

My main bully at school was so far from "clever and charismatic" it's laughable. He was bottom of the class in almost everything, looking back I assume that's why he bullied others, only way he had to assert superiority. Seven years of turn the other cheek, tell the teacher, and rise above it, it was losing my temper and screaming at him that ended it.

The other bullies were cleverer and more charismatic, and the thing that made them fuck off in the end was to outsmart them.

It varies depending on the bully and the victim. There is no catch all solution. Only thing I am 100% sure doesn't work is turning the other cheek.

"The problem as I have always seen it is that these 'intelligent and charismatic' children are found as amusing by their teachers as they are by their peers."

Yep :(

'"The problem as I have always seen it is that these 'intelligent and charismatic' children are found as amusing by their teachers as they are by their peers."'

Never have, never will. Nothing amusing or admirable in using your wit and intelligence and charisma to make someone else unhappy. Ever.

Yeah never really understood the 'turn the other cheek' advice, IME that results in that cheek copping a hit as well.

Firstly, I am a very big advocate of hitting back if someone hits you.

But hitting back only works if the bullying involves hitting though, people are too quick to minimise the mental side of things, both schools and parents. and my example is from when I was at school, but I havent seen it being any different now. I remember being verbally bullied at one point, telling my mum who came in to see the teacher (with me at the meeting) and both my mum and the teacher agreed that "girls will be girls"

Plus what do you suggest when it is more than one on one? Personally I'd go with getting as much in as possible and going down fighting, (after my little sister was jumped by a gang of girls outside of school) but it doesn't seem very safe to advise that to my DSs?

Quite Morloth

Beyond All my bullies were verbal/mental not physical. Hitting them would have achieved nothing, the only way to beat them was to use their own techniques against them. And in my useless schools hitting back would have got me a worse punishment than the bullies would ever have got.

As BeyondTheLimits has pointed out, what about non-physical bullying? The relational aggression that is invisible to teachers and other adults but can lead to a child being ostracised, mocked and socially excluded by their peers for months at a time?

I hit back.

Chicken shit bully went squealing to her parents and I was painted to be in the wrong. I then endured another three years of it.

Actually murder, I've just remembered something. As a teen there was a separate situation in my dancing school, verbal bullying by a big group as I wasnt one of the teachers "favourites". I physically lashed out first (after months of bitchiness), kicked the bloody big! ringleader "accidentally" while on stage. They left me alone after. Make of that what you will...

Eyesunder - I wish the majority of my teachers had the same attitude as you, unfortunately it was not the case in my situation... And that went straight through all of my school years

I think teachers do struggle with dealing with it, intellectually I understand that often bullies have a whole raft of their own issues that cause them to behave that way, but it doesn't make an ounce of difference when your life is made a misery by someone who thinks mocking and harassing you, or punching, pinching, slapping or sexually assaulting you is acceptable.

I can count on one hand the amount of times a teacher made a stand against bullying, one hand... But I still have physical and mental scars from the times they laughed along or was told to try and fit in or ignore it.

My worst memory of a teacher "helping" was when they dragged me and the group of girls who'd been bullying me into a classroom and said, "now girls, MoG says you've been being mean to her?". Of course they all said, "oh no, we didn't mean to, we're sorry MoG, we'll look after you" and escorted me out of the classroom with their arms around my shoulders. I just wanted to scream at the teacher. How could they not see what was happening??

'non-physical bullying? The relational aggression that is invisible to teachers and other adults'

A good teacher should be aware of it, reading and interpreting the dynamics of interpersonal relationships is part of the job IMO.

All these responses show that bullying takes many forms. Both whacking a bully and attempting a witty come back can back fire.

In this day and age, I think hitting your persecutor is liable to give you a label of being violent and out of control and land you in the head's office.

A witty come back to a more socially adept bully can just aggravate the situation.

I think the solution is a culture that does not accept bullying and has a protocol to follow when bullying is reported that shows that it is taken seriously; teachers managing the social dynamics in their class; and vulnerable children being given opportunities to find friends outside their class and avoid situations where they will encounter bullies unsupervised.

Of course, all this requires resources.

Plus yet another thing. Someone upthread said exclusion doesnt solve it, they move on to someone else. Is this not true of hitting back too? If most bullies are lashing out because they are bullied elsewhere (is this factual btw? Its relevant to my example below, but dont know if it is actually true to all bullies?) they'll still feel the need to lash out, just not at you?

I don't want to offend anyone who has escaped DV by the way, I'm basing this on the probably oversimplistic idea that your experience of your childhood having an effect on the type of people you are attracted to as an adult... (Please please please dont be offended, I know this is AIBU, but its honesty not my intention! :) )

My example, one of the worst girl bullies at my high school (who luckily never had a problem with me). She went from one abusive relationship to the next until she was murdered by her boyfriend at 20 years old.

Well, its all very well musing over the playground bully - which more often then not is verbal and peer isolation rather than physical - how many of you have read posts here about people being isolated from their families and friends by and absolutely charismatic charmer, and the person is frightened to leave because the partner has been so successful in destroying that persons confidence that they are reliant on the person and they fear they won't be believed by a wider circle?

It doesnt stop in the play ground. It carries on to work and home life. People live it everyday.

It isnt just about whacking the bully, its about being emotionally equipped to deal with people who are able to brow beat you