AIBU to think this is bad advice? (Re. Bullies)

[Angora831]

I've read a lot of threads here and on other Internet hangouts about bullies. Invariably, someone will advise teaching your children 'witty' comebacks to show up the bully. Speaking as a teacher with a few years at the coalface behind me, I'd just like to say THIS NEVER WORKS. This is because:

A) the comeback is clearly practiced at home with Mum. Children aren't stupid and they pick up on this.

B) Bullies are generally clever and charismatic children, and every time I've witnessed a child retorting with an obviously rehearsed comeback, the bully is able to verbally outwit them and make them look small and stupid. Horrid to watch, must be more horrid for the victim (and because I know what Mumsnet is like and where this thread will go, please rest assured that I do punish bullying behaviour when I witness it).

I'm not saying i have all the answers to bullying, but based on my own experience (and my highly scientific poll of the staff room before we broke up last week), the 'hilarious comeback' approach just doesn't work.

Beyond, I have found that the bullies often have issues of their own that need supporting, either they are being bullied or not in control over their lives, or that they lack empathy for one reason or another, or they are insecure.
For me, that is a problem that the adults around them should be identifying and solving, not the children that are being targeted by an unhappy or malicious child. If they hit the bully and that bully then moves on to a different target, it is not the victim's fault, or their responsibility.
For them, having been failed by the adults, it is a strategy that has worked.

It isn't the victim's problem if the bully has their own issues or moves on to someone else.

You can't expect a child to deal with that sort of thing, they just need it to stop and if the adults around them either can't or won't (as in the school where I went) deal with it, then I have no problem with them using force in an attempt to stop it.

Yes but the children being bullied are generally mild, gentle kids who are scared of the bullies. How do you teach them to hit back if they are physically smaller or outnumbered? I would have been scared stiff of being beaten up. Most of the posters finally snapped and it stopped. Would they have been able to do that before? I guess martial arts classes is the answer. I have wanted mine to do them for that reason- to give them confidence. They've always refused. Fortunately so far they've never been bullied but if they were now they'd struggle to physically defend themselves.

Oh god no, that isnt what I meant! The child (or better, adults around them!) should do everything they can to stop it happening to them, its in no way their responsibility! I was just responding to the point upthread that excluding the bully doesnt "solve" their bullying, implying that hitting them back does?

I had a couple of bullies. I have a smart mouth and managed to turn class ridicule on bully #1 - and it was very effective. But bully #2 was a psycho - ended up jailed for assault post-school. Only intervention via HT worked with that one. Neither bully was in the least charismatic or clever. They were daft arseholes who no-one liked for themselves, so had to resort to bullying to make their way in the world. I think OP doesn't see the verbal comeback cases that work because they don't happen in front of teachers. You have to pick your moments, be sneaky, and orchestrate your efforts. Believe me, verbal comebacks can work very well if you know what you're doing...

Also I think it is important to teach you kids to stand up for kids that are bullied. I know that is something my father did and taught me to do.

^^ this, absolutely. If you have a confident and truly charismatic and clever child then teach them to use their gift appropriately. However, saying that, this is not a burden another child should have to take on. Teachers need appropriate training and resources to help deal with bullying.

I'd also like to add, my bullies weren't clever or charismatic either. They were thick shits who were snorting drugs by age 16 whilst pregnant and left school without qualifications. Popped out a couple more by age 20. They all still live in this bubble and meet and socialise with the same people and friends they had in primary/middle and secondary school. I find that weird.

In the Op when I read that bullies are often "charismatic and clever" I actually hear 'devious and manipulative'.

In my experience the bullies who have made children's lives a misery are those that lack a caring and thoughtful home life. Whether that be from abuse, neglect or lack of boundaries.

In order to get the love and attention they need and deserve (as every child does) they learn to manipulate the people around them.

In some cases unfortunately any attention is good attention.

Not sure I agree that bullies are clever and charismatic. The bully in my kid's year seems bright, but def not charismatic. He appears to me to have a low self esteem and be crying out for attention.

When he started calling my (mixed race) son a 'black freak' I decided to go up the school. I'm white, so limited experience with racism, so i was at a bit of a loss. The teacher who I saw is the school senco, and brilliant at empowering children. i think it also helped that he is Indian too, so would undoubtedly have experienced the same thing as a child. He taught my sons to stand up, clearly state 'I don't like that' and walk away. It was mind blowingly simple, but enough. No reaction, nothing for the bully to pick up on, and by not reacting my twins retain their dignity.

I think it helped that he talked to them about how it made them feel, recognised that it wasn't acceptable, and accepted that it hurt their feelings and they were allowed to acknowledge that. Being told to simply ignore something, isn't going to do a victim any favours, and neither is reacting to it.

I bloody wish my mum had been like you lot. She told me to ignore the bullies, and then never once thought to ask whether the bullying had stopped. She gave me the crystal clear impression that if the bullying carried on it would be because I wasn't ignoring it well enough, and I decided there was no point 'telling' at school, because if I'd 'told' my mum, and she didn't care, then the school weren't going to care either - and if I did 'tell' and there were repercussions, I was sure mum wouldn't back me up.

So I put up with the bullying in silence, was suicidal by age 14, and am still suffering the depression that is the legacy from the bullying.

We got posted to another new location, and yet again my sweet little brother got hammered as a newbie by the indigenous population.
Years later, my mother owned up to having stood on the balcony of the block of flats, watching as my brother ran for cover pursued by the pack.
Knowing that my sister and I were waiting in the trees.

I remember the bullying at school, there was practically a fixed social hierarchy. A snappy come back was pointless. There'd be a group of people ready to further humiliate the poor boy or girl.

The child was usually half the size of the ones doing the taunting so physically it wouldn't work.

I see how ds' school works, they put a lot of effort into how to treat each other, modelling good behaviour and resolving issues. He's only young, 8 but it helps all the children.

Only thing I've found works is a climate of respect and supportive behaviour from everyone, adults and children. Where aberrations from that stance are disapproved of and discussed and corrected, and where good instances are spotted and praised. From being very small.

The victim of bullying shouldn't have to do this and I was dubious about whether it would work but it has worked brilliantly. ds changed schools. Nobody knew what buttons to press unlike the bullies who had known him all of his school life. It was a big upheaval and I am cross he had to move but it's been the best thing ever.

At my all girl's school, bullying meant most of the class turning on somebody who had been identified as a misfit. (Wrong clothes, wrong background, possibly slight SN, wrong attitude, not prepared to follow social conventions as identified by the class).

I don't think any child would be able to handle this situation without clear, active support from teachers, and I have never encountered this situation outside the dynamics of a class of 30 children, all the same age.

In my experience the come back does work quite effectively. I coached my 11 year she is quite witty anyway we just spent some time going through various scenarios and what the child in question would do or say next. I warned her that this may escalate the situation temporarily and that if the child in question was nice to her she was to be nice back any hassle of any kind she could retaliate and she could then set the tone for the relationship, ( I also told her that if she didnt sort it I would come in to school during form time and sort it myself ) She a quite kid but is very strong willed I was a bit surprised she hadn't nipped it in the bud herself but she had only just started secondary school and was afraid she would get in to trouble.
DD3 I would never use this approach with she just wouldnt be able to cope with the comebacks even pre rehearsed it wouldnt work x

I think Primary school's bullying policies need a huge shake up.
IME they are totally ineffective, and too gentle on bullies who then go into secondary school continuing to bully.

Dd and her friends were slapped, scratched and shouted at on a daily basis by a boy at school. Several parents complained, but were told that the boy rather liked a couple of the girls, but didn't know how to deal with his feelings.
So in the meantime, by excusing his behaviour, the school were inadvertently teaching the boy that it is ok to behave like that, whilst at the same time teaching the girls that because the boy liked them, they had to put up with being hurt by him

Primary schools need to have zero tolerance on certain behaviours (hitting, verbally bullying etc) and give consequences every time, not make excuses for the bully, or being manipulated and charmed by the bully or their governor parents

Ds1 was bullied from yr 3. Primary school, although sympathetic, did nothing to help.
When he started secondary, he was badly bullied by a horrible boy in our village. I think he had family issues. He was notorious in his primary school, throughout his time there, yet nothing was done about it at all.
One pupil retaliated once - the boy was trying to push him off his bike, the victim turned the wheel which tripped the horrible bully boy up - he went home crying to his dad, who went into school to complain. The victim boy got a massive bollocking - more than the bully boy had in several years of vicious bullying.

Ds was advised by CAMHS to have a witty retort, but he refused to try this, as he acknowledges he is not a naturally witty person, and wouldn't be able to outwit a bully.
We moved him to a different school when it became clear that he wasn't safe. The new school seems to have discipline down to a fine art, and so far, ds loves school.

FWIW - I agree with the clever comments not really working. What worked for me is knowing that I would have a lot more control & options over my life than the bullies & not really caring what they thought. When I got older I had a stronger group of friends & it was a lot better. If there was a magic answer then I don't think that bullying would still be going on.

I have to agree with previous posters who ended up resorting to violence.

My bullying only stopped after I threw a stool at the bitch who had been making my life hell for 4 years and caught her in the face.

My DD's bullying only stopped after she really lost it and punched and kicked all three of them after 5 years of bullying.

Ds's 4 years of bulling only stopped after he punch one of them square in the nose and left him wailing on the playground floor.

Violence shouldn't ever be the answer to anything but sometimes it's the only thing that works. What is even more telling to me, is that in each of these episodes, none of us got into trouble with it with the schools because it had been going on for so long.

None of us has had to resort to doing that again and usually just ignore but I have to admit, it's nice to know that my kids do have a limit and will only put up with it for so long.

OP, I just re-read your opening post and noticed you said "because I know what Mumsnet is like and where this thread will go"

I'm curious to know if the thread has gone the way you expected it to? It's a shame you seem to have disappeared and left us to it!

I think there is a big difference between having friends but being persecuted by a group of children who get kicks from bullying (probably because they are a bit thick) and being the outcast of the entire class, or being singled out because you are not as socially adept as your peer group.

Clearly, many different situations come under the heading of bullying, and they all require different solutions. However, I don't think the kind of bullying that goes on in school is replicated outside school, and I think it does require adult intervention.

I taught ds that it's a power battle and they are attracted to kids who they think are weak. The only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

A verbal insult works for verbal bullies, but the only way to deal with a physical one is to smack them back. One little sod locked ds in a classroom before the end of term so that he could let rip. Ds picked up whatever was close (in this case a microphone stand) and smashed it into the bullys leg before escaping. Problem is, this little sod and his two 'mates' are in ds's class in September!

I was never bullied as a child, teased yes but full-on bullied, no. My DS was relentlessly picked on (read bullied) for 5 years at Primary school and I had n idea how to handle it. The Infants were brilliant and closely monitored the other child and clamped down on his behaviour the moment he started to get out of hand and protected my son.

When my son moved to Juniors, the school just ignored the bullying and said my son had to ignore it. For three years it went on with me going into school every other day and the school not taking it seriously. It got to the stage where the other child was waiting down side walks between the school buildings and in the toilets and being physically violent but also started being really nasty making racist remarks about me and my partner (my children are white, as am I and my DP is mixed race).

One day I just lost it, my DS would not go to school so I went to speak to his teacher and she asked me what was wrong. I said, 'He is what's wrong ' and pointed out the bully and said that the children were now 10 and so were considered criminally responsible for their actions and if he laid another finger on my DS I would go to the Police as the school was not able to protect him'. I took DS home, taught him everything I knew about self-defence and then told him never to start anything but to finish it and that if the child came near him to tell him he would punch him and then to do it.

The next day, my DS went in, the child started on him in the claokroom, DS wholloped him one and he has not been touched since.

Schools need to get real and stop fannying around imho.

IME the bullies always win because society enables them.

Your peers won't support you in case they become the next victim.

Telling someone makes it worse because they'll take the easy option to get rid of the problem I.e get rid of the victim stupid enough to complain. Dealing with the actul bully is too difficult and their parents could be bullies too. Same with anti-social neighbours they have more front to fight back and don't care about doing the right thing so councils threaten the complaining neighbours with eviction for creating a problem by complaining it's easier. Boss in the work place similar thought process.

If I had my time over I'd curl up in a ball and just take the beating. I know one thing telling the teacher was one of the worst mistakes I've ever made. I was told not to fight back too, they said I'd be expelled and perhaps charged. The bullies not so much as a single warning.