to be sad when somebody posts on here about some hideous piece of behaviour from somebody between the ages of 13 and 19, and

[curlew]

there's a flood of "that's normal teenage behaviour" posts.

It isn't. Most teenagers, like most people are lovely. But if they are allowed to behave like brats and get away with it because "that's what teens are like" then they will be brats. And it becomes a vicious circle.

Expect civilised behaviour. Don't accept anything else. Teenagers deserve it.

All joking aside though, there are a lot of posts about teenage behaviour, and partner behaviour that must surely make some of you think, or in my case post 'WHY are you tolerating that?"
When it's not SN or drugs or trauma or whatever.
It's just someone behaving like an entitles arse and others either not dealing with it or actively facilitating it.
My Aspie DS has had many a moment that was completely out of my control, linked to his SN and nothing to do with my parenting.
He's also had his arrogant, entitled expectations as a teen challenged by me. But that's bee the case since he was a small child. Likewise with DD.
There are a lot of teenagers with parents posting here, saying pathetically "They do nothing around the house' 'They are so rude and treat me like a servant'
And all I can think is 'WTF? Remember you are a vertebrate'
There has to be a middle ground. Isn't there?

I have to say I agree with cory.

My only comment would be that, even though some children will have harder times than others and should be supported, loved and nurtured to help them get through the other side, the behaviour itself should not be accepted.

So it's less of an issue about 'This should never happen and if it does it's a sign that said teen hasn't/isn't been parented well enough' but more of a 'This attitude isn't acceptable, how can I support my child best?' and accept that for some teens these times will be harder than for others.

Maryz I live in fear that one day I will read one of Bonsoir's posts and agree with it.

I am sure Maryz expected civilised behaviour.

Just like I expected dd to be able to walk.

And my friend expected her dd to be able to understand social boundaries.

I was the teenager from hell, stayed out all night, drew ink lines up my arms to suggest I was shooting up (too much of a wimp to actually shoot up) gave my parents a lot of cheek and challenge, flunked my O levels and competed with rest of my friendship group to be naughtiest girl in the school, nearly expelled when we inadvertently set fire to the boards at the end of the tennis courts whilst smoking behind them in hot weather (stupidity compounded by being the only ones walking away when rest of school running to see). They are not only loving parents, they were strict about boundaries too. It's just I couldn't resist bouncing against them. I am sure I hurt them and tested their patience. The only thing they may have been guilty of was naively, they didn't realise the half of what teenagers got up to in the 70s, and they didn't realise I was dyslexic, hence the problems at school. However I never lost touch with the values they had given me, however much I appeared off the rails it was mainly for show and bluster. And when I needed to I got my head down and got the results I needed for uni.

My teens have also challenged us, and my parents have very much enjoyed it being my turn. But like me they have the right fundamental values, all those values that you bring them up to have, if they are not there by 8 or so, it is too late. Scratch the surface of the rebellion and it is still the same little girl I have loved from birth. Being fully aware of the dangers out there i have been strict, no binge drinking in the parks at 14, "all my friends do it" is no argument. My DD1 is now 21 and says she appreciated our strictness, all those girls who were allowed to stay out all night and do what they wanted weren't happy.

I think OP has to disentangle the element of teenage behaviour that is sparked by hormones and developmental psychology, and that which is sparked by other factors, peer pressure, personal problems, genuine mental illness and yes in some cases but not all, a lack of boundaries on what is acceptable behaviour.

Good parenting is always to be encouraged. Of course

But teenagers are capable of immensely selfish behaviour. Even if they have good parents and have been parented well.

To insinuate that behavioural issues must be the parents' fault, or particularly their mother's fault, is crass, insensitive (given how many people have posted so eloquently here about their problems, difficulties and strategies for coping with wayward teenagers) and actually fucking stupid.

I expect civilised behaviour. It baffles me that my DS would merrily flush the toilet aged 3 but forgets to do do aged 13. No big changes in our lives (before anyone starts psychoanalysing us). Lots of other examples. My standards haven't dropped. It's behaviour he knows about and has displayed in the past. He's being a selfish uninterested child. I try and tackle it, one by one. Every time. It's exhausting. But maybe I shouldn't be working so I can nag him some more.

On these forums, one of the first go-to people I want to give me parenting advice is Maryz. Not a person who has avoided troubles. Not a person who has raised 70 teenagers with zero issues. But someone who actually understands where im coming from, someone who is not talking out of their own arse but is knowledgable about serious challenges, has lived them and is still standing.

I'd love to know what Bonsoir would try to do with my challenging teen

I absolutely agree with not being a walk-over or doormat parent. But funnily enough, when I look round my own circle of friends and relatives I can't see a clear correlation between doormat parents and pratty adult children. Some are, some aren't. Some of the most ghastly PFB's, the ones we inwardly swore would come to no good, have grown up into lovely adolescents and young adults. And some of the best parented, most well behaved young children, in the most stable and loving families, have gone totally off the rails. Or, more often, gone off the rails for a bit and then matured.

It's very annoying really.

Parenting has been so badly sidelined as a critical skill for society in the so-called feminist revolution that has sent mothers out into the workforce that it is unsurprising that this should be so

Jesus fucking christ. It's all down to the mothers is it?

lol at Bonsoir posts.

I wish it was that easy!

Of course some children will become self entitled prats because they have been let to do so.
But saying that all children who get off the rails are because of bad parenting and because women work! lol lol.

I got a bit worried a while back when I started agreeing with xenia

scary times

Lilka Tue 16-Jul-13 11:38:56
"On these forums, one of the first go-to people I want to give me parenting advice is Maryz. Not a person who has avoided troubles. Not a person who has raised 70 teenagers with zero issues. But someone who actually understands where im coming from, someone who is not talking out of their own arse but is knowledgable about serious challenges, has lived them and is still standing."

YYY

Bonsoir - how do you account for the many, many families that have more than one child; where one child blithely sails through the teenage years upsetting no-one and fulfilling his/her potential and the other(s) don't. How can that be down to how they are "parented"?

I also wonder what you want to impart to your offspring and the qualities you would hope they would show in adulthood. I would be really upset if my children became judgemental, blinkered and intolerant for example.

I found bringing up my dd a challenge. However, the most challenging bits of her personality are now shining out as high principles, a love for justice, a determination not to ignore injustice and an increasing understanding and tolerance for human frailty (that one has taken a while ). I feel that I can learn a lot from her - which is interesting, because that's what she tried to convince me all through her teenage years .

Bonsoir has step kids so if they go off the rail she'll just blame the OW, obviously.

Bonsoir - how do you account for the many, many families that have more than one child; where one child blithely sails through the teenage years upsetting no-one and fulfilling his/her potential and the other(s) don't. How can that be down to how they are "parented"?

Each child is different; among parents' many responsibilities is work out the user manual for each child!

One of the issues DS1 was struggling with, during his teenage years, was being gay.

Clearly that was my fault as well, for going out to work.

If only I'd been a SAHM and had had better parenting skills, perhaps he would have turned out to be 'normal'?

The thing is Bonsoir isn't the mother of a teenager.
She is the mother of a child and the step mother of 2 step sons. Who will have had a very different influence/upbringing than the one she is giving her dd.

I much prefer listening to Maryz who has a lot of hands on experience with teenagers, good and bad. Even wo the stupidity of saying that it's all down to women's working (as if the dad has no impact whatsoever, as well as the teen's own life experiences, their genetic make up, their own temperament etc etc).

I remember skipping over all the the advice about how to deal with an off- the-rails teenager, because things like that didn't happen to decent families like us

We had high expectations of DD and she sailed through her teens with minimal problems.

We expected the same of DS1 and he has spent the past few years in self destruct mode.

It is so easy to be sanctimonious and self-congratulatory. Until you realise that that life ain't always that simple...

I am thinking the same as you, Verlaine: it is because dd's adolescent years have not been smooth sailing that she is such an empathetic, emotionally mature person with such a great sense of humour. My parenting may have its flaws but at least I do believe I am sending into the world a person incapable of writing a paragraph like this

"In the mean time, I shall just carry on being everyone's first port of call for their problem teens. Which might just possibly have something to do with the fact that DP and I give pretty good advice to those who ask how we do it"

without her toes curling.

Each child is different; among parents' many responsibilities is work out the user manual for each child!

Of course, it is. But it doesn't mean parents and especially mothers are the one an only reason for a teen having problem and going off the rails. Not even for being a prat and showing no remorse to eating chocolate that weren't theirs.

I have a teenager. I have read the thread. I have no idea what to say. He can be a total PITA a lot. And it's now my fault?

Not read the entire thread. I agree that most teens are lovely 90% of the time. However like all of us we make mistakes in life. Some children find growing up harder than others

I agree that high expectations are important for any child. However we all made mistakes growing up and its unreasonable expect your child never to make mistakes.

Why, cory, do you find it so inacceptable for people to recognise that they have useful skills that they are happy to share (when asked, for free) with others?