to take my DS out of pre school because they say he is needs 'extra support'.

[Elvisina]

My 3 yr old DS has always been on the lively side! His idea of heaven is being allowed to just run through a park, woods or along a beach, preferably with some older children. He very rarely shows an interest in any kind of ?mark making? (despite our best efforts ? we have enough arts and crafts stuff in this house to start up our own nursery). He had been quite a few months behind with his speech but his language has recently taken off in a big way! A recent visit to a speech therapist reassured me he is/will be fine.
Anyway, this April he started at a local pre school for 2 and a half days a week. It?s a new pre school that is attached to a primary school which only opened 2 years ago. They?ve just received a very good Ofsted and the resources are great. I was so delighted to get him in there and he absolutely loves it, running into the playground each morning with a massive smile on his face. However, over the last few weeks, I?ve been feeling increasingly uneasy about how they think he?s doing. Whenever I made a friendly enquiry to his teacher I?ve had rather crisp, negative responses such as ?He doesn?t like joining in activities, especially if they?re led by an adult. He?s just not really ready? and ?I?m like a broken record having to tell him all the time to put his coat on?. Nothing positive (and I know I?m biased but he is damn cute!). Last week I decided to phone up for a chat about how he?s doing, basically expecting some reassurance along the lines of, ?he?s happy and friendly and we?re working on getting him to use his ?listening ears?? etc however it turned into a serious talk about how they have been preparing documentation to get him ?extra support? because he wants to play outside all the time and doesn?t want to join in the teacher led activities. Language such as ?he needs a different learning path? was used. Apparently he stood out from the other children who were all happy to listen to teacher led activities. I was devastated and I know it?s ridiculous but I cried! It really hurt that they felt he was so different from the others. I mentioned that I had noticed there were loads more girls than boys and she said she hadn?t noticed this as a particular issue but in his class picture on their website there are 9 girls and 3 boys!

My DH thinks we should just accept the extra help and not worry about it but I now feel as though perhaps this isn?t the place for my DS. I don?t even feel as though they like him very much. I took him out of a lovely, friendly nursery where they seemed to really ?get? him and like him to go to this new pre school. I?m now considering sending him back there. Thing is, he loves it and I could be doing him a disservice by not letting him have this ?extra support?. I honestly hadn?t realised that he would be required to take part in so many teacher led activities. I thought he got to play all day! What?s wrong with him wanting to play outside for 2 hours pretending to be a pirate? (I?m a teacher myself ? secondary ? so should have known better really). I keep looking at my wonderful boy who I honestly, honestly, honestly don?t think there is anything wrong with and feeling upset that they?ve made me feel as though he is somehow ?failing?/different. I?m going in next week to observe him and discuss his ?learning path? but actually I just feel like I want to remove him. Would that be ridiculously unreasonable of me? Am I just being too sensitive?

My dn went to school in a different country. 3 boys in his class with very obvious ASD, all highly disruptive, no diagnosis, no statement, no support. And not much learning going on in that classroom either, as the teacher's energies were wholly taken up with trying to keep these three boys more or less under control. I

Elvisina - do you know that there are outdoor nurseries in some areas? The children spend all day outdoors (they have really good wet weather gear, and use tarpaulins to make temporary shelters). They are properly OFSTED inspected, so they must do the learning activities, but from what I have read, these are done in a very outdoorsy way.

I've seen children and staff from the outdoor nursery based in Pollock Park in Glasgow, and the children looked really happy and engaged - and grubby, of course, but that's not a bad thing IMO.

If you have a similar nursery local to you, it might be right up your son's street. If we'd had one local to us when my dses were in nursery, I would have put them in it in a heartbeat - they'd have loved it.

Elvisina. I know how you feel at the moment. It's a shock being told something might be wrong.

Your son is damn cute. That's a given and doesn't alter.

But please go listen open mindedly.

Preschool follows Early Years which is all about playing. But play doesn't just mean kids single mindedly doing their own thing. Play IS learning and it's about social interaction and stuff like that. Adult led activities probably mean playing a simple game or listening to a story.

The derisive snorts from people who think this preschool are trying to tie your kid to a desk are not helpful.

Have you seen the EY schematic of what kids can generally do in a given age range? Get it off the internet and work through it highlighting what you see him do (the age ranges overlap). You might find it useful next week. And think more in terms of my son can do x at home what help does he need to do x in other situations.

Trust your preschool teacher. Nurseries do have form for not focusing on SEN. I'd much rather have the preschool teacher who cared enough to plough through the paperwork and set IEPs than a nursery teacher who told my kid was cute.

A lot of people seem to think different learning path means being shipped off to some special school. It's very encompassing - my DS has a different path cos he doesn't respond to phonics and learns whole words. The help available is so subtle and targeted

Amberleaf, no he had an action plan and was on the school's list of SEN. The fact that you have had a certain experience doesn't make me a liar.

Clearly some children are being wrongly diagnosed (either as having an SEN or not having one) or there wouldn't be such a large difference between the number of Summer and Autumn born children with a diagnosis.

Some of the 'evidence' on here is like a witch hunt. The fact that a child has behavioural issues at school and not home might be evidence of an SEN, or it might be evidence that the school is a poor environment, or it might be both.

There is nothing wrong with a child having, for example, an ASD. But for the treatment of a child to be so poor that an NT child starts to exhibit the symptoms of an SEN does put that child at risk of a diagnosis of something they don't have. Experts are not magicians. They can make mistakes.

OP, there's lots to take in on this thread. Can I say though that my son had been in nursery since he was 6 months old and it took a new keyworker starting to raise concerns about his development (age 3). Sometimes when people know your child really, really well they don't 'see' things clearly, no matter how well-trained and professional they are.

children are not just diagnosed with ASD on a whim, it would only be after going through several assessments and after a group of professionals had discussed everything thoroughly. being on a school SEN list is not the same as having a medical diagnosis of SN.

Halycondays, so? The fact that somebody else's child has a more serious issue doesn't make all the kids in school who are considered to have a SEN by the school suddenly a total irrelevance.

No they aren't trying to tie kids to a desk, but nevertheless we do things very differently in this country to much of Germany and scandinavia, and it involves much more formal learning much earlier. My son is happy at preschool, but do I think they should be learning about the flags of the world and 'how your lungs work?' as a formal topic at age 2 or 3? Like hell they should, and the EYFS framework is frankly bonkers in so many ways that I can barely begin to describe them.

The differential between diagnosed SEN in august-born v. september-born kids is indicative of the problems we are dealing with here - how can you explain that away?! SEN are not diagnosed in a vacuum, and the UK has a particular problem with pushing kids into formal settings before they are ready for them, to the serious detriment of many.

I would go and talk to them.

It is good they are being careful and wanting to support him.

It will have been a shock when they came out with this but don't assume they are saying he has SN.

It is quite hard to tell at that young age but a red flag CAN be acting quite differently to peers.

So it is good they pick up on this.

If you are.confident he is fine though and will just mature in time then you are probably right. No harm in getting some extra input for him.

Must also point out to some on the thread that my DD needs constant 1 to 1 and is still just as great as any other child and my parenting is probably damn good as well, because it has to be.

Needing support isn't an indicator or being naughty or having useless parents.
It is just how the brain is developing.

For example..at preschool my DD wouldn't join in and needed support. .most people on this thread would have said she was just immature and give her time etc..even 1 nursery teacher said this.

She wasn't and I am damn glad she got the support.

(Once again in no way am I saying OP's DS has SN like.my DD)

By the by, I'm constantly amazed by the awed reverence with which 'experts' are regarded on MN. None of this stuff is black and white, and you get so-called 'experts' talking bollocks or being plain incompetent just as much as lay-people. Take a little look at the history of psychology if you want to see where so-called expertise has taken us in the past. I'm far from anti-intellectual - I'm an academic myself - but don't leave your instincts and experience at the door just because you are dealing with a 'professional'.

Sorry - haven't read the whole thread.

Jeesh, he's only 3, no wonder he wants to run about outside! But the real question is is he happy there? If he's happy then ignore everything else, take the extra support, tell him how lucky he is with someone helping him, it is such early days, don't worry, he'll be fine.

Amberleaf, no he had an action plan and was on the school's list of SEN. The fact that you have had a certain experience doesn't make me a liar

I haven't said you are a liar.

Some of the 'evidence' on here is like a witch hunt. The fact that a child has behavioural issues at school and not home might be evidence of an SEN, or it might be evidence that the school is a poor environment, or it might be both

Witch hunt? interesting choice of language. very negative.

There is nothing wrong with a child having, for example, an ASD. But for the treatment of a child to be so poor that an NT child starts to exhibit the symptoms of an SEN does put that child at risk of a diagnosis of something they don't have. Experts are not magicians. They can make mistakes

It is not that easy to get a diagnosis of ASD or anything tbh.

What happens in school is a small part of it [and SEN would cover that- no need for a diagnosis there]

To be diagnosed with something eg ASD, you need to see a multi disciplinary team, not much room for error when it relies on more than one professional.

Sorry, but 'at risk of a diagnosis of something they don't have' is laughable.

impecunious - you need to peek at the SN boards. Not a lot of unfounded reverence towards professionals and experts going on there. Rather, an awful lot of healthy questioning.

I was in a similar position but we were not offered help really, just told that DS didn't join in, ran round a lot etc. he was delayed with language development too. He is now 14 and we are finally after years of wrangling getting a statutory assessment. He has been diagnosed with ASD and ADD. Not saying your DC has got a problem but if there is any issue it may be best to get in the system early. You'll soon be dumped back out if all is well!

My ds will be 3 in September so luckily he wont start reception until Sept 2015. I am also a secondary teacher and will admit straight away I know absolutely F-all about preschool children. My ds has severe speech delay and has had developmental delay. He suffered some brain damage at birth (although from some posters apparently his speech delay is my fault ). Although i should have been expecting some problems I was still shocked to actually be told by my consultant. I even insisted on a second opinion at GOSH, I was so convinced they were wrong. I didn't want to do the speech therapy, the portage service etc. They must be wrong. My baby boy had been through so much already.

He is currently with a childminder because he didn't fit into a noisy nursery environment. He loves it there. She lets him run, jump, get muddy, get wet, spend hours kicking a ball. She encourages him to paint but only once in a blue moon does it happen. She presented me with hand prints yesterday as proud as if she was his mum.
However he also sees portage and SALT. After speaking to many people with SEN children they have all said get support early. It is so difficult to get the support you need and it makes all the difference. I am due to look round a preschool next week - it is the one attached to the school. I am positive about it. He probably wont start until January 2014 and only for however many hours I think he needs, building it up over time. I want to talk to them about support right from the start.
I'm still not convinced that there is anything wrong with him long term. His development (except for speech) is catching up fast. His speech is unusual - he has said a number of words once but never again, he only has 3 words he uses regularly. However I am now trying to get him a statement of SEN. I would rather he had the support now then struggle to get it in 2 or 3 years time. I will be the happiest woman alive if he doesn't need it in the end and will always expect the best from him.

Basically OP if your son is happy at preschool then I would leave him there and talk to the staff. Find out a bit more about what they want to do. If he gets extra support now that doesn't mean he's labelled for the rest of his life but if he needs it and you've turned it down you will never forgive yourself. I already feel guilty for putting off portage for so long. If you feel unhappy with him staying there then move him back but go to your GP and try to get a second opinion.

I really do know how you feel. It is such a shock to think that someone thinks of your child as anything less than perfect. They may be wrong (great!) but if they're not you'll regret it. Good luck. x

On the SEN boards I'm quite certain there is. I have enough experience in the system to know that you won't get through having a child with special needs without questioning the system! I was responding to the number of people on the thread saying 'well she is a childcare professional therefore you should take her seriously because she is the expert'. In the average preschool, I think that is a pretty dangerous attitude to take - in both directions, as a number if people on the thread have detailed staff who ignored or belittled cases where the parent knew there was in fact a problem.

Sorry, I meant sn boards not sen boards.

I don't think anyone has said the nursery teacher is an expert, but she has raised concerns, so I'm not sure why so many people are dismissing them out of hand.

A childcare/educational professional flagging up a possible problem and passing it on to an expert is normal though. They are not diagnosing anything are they? they are just saying 'this may be an issue, maybe he needs some extra help' and it wont hurt to follow it through.

Has anyone said a teacher is qualified to diagnose?

flagging up potential areas of extra needs is NOT writing them off ffs

In fact it is the opposite of writing them off.

Hi OP

Haven't read the whole thread and not sure if I can add anything useful but I just wanted to say I really sympathise with your feelings. We don't have crystal balls and can't see how our DCs lives will play out.

My DS had various "issues" flagged at his really excellent nursery school to do with difficulty with fine motor skills. Now he's just about to set off to secondary school I can see he has no problem with fine motor skills and I'd love him to write/ draw something for his nursery teachers to show them how everything worked out.

But at the time they were flagged up I didn't know all this and was quite upset, as I was similarly upset about the fact that he had to be sent to the headteacher of his nursery school for aggressive behaviour.

Its all turned out fine. He didn't have extra support but somehow between us & his teachers and all the other friends and significant people in his life so far, he has turned out to be a well behaved, hard working and popular boy.

But I do remember the hours of wondering, not knowing & deciding whether to trust my own instincts/ listen to the teachers etc etc.

Somehow we found the right way through, by listening to what people had to say and doing what we felt might be the right thing. I hope you manage it too.

DS's teacher told me at parents' evening in October that she thought he had issues. I was furious - he was (and still is) damn cute. He's also just been diagnosed with ADHD.

So I was really annoyed but now I'm incredibly grateful that she had the knowledge and experience to pick up the fact that he wasn't doing as well as he could/should and has put him on the path to getting the extra support he needs to achieve to the very best of his abilities.

There are some shockingly ignorant posts on this thread which really sicken me. Anyone who thinks they are responsible for the fact their children are NT needs to take a really long look at themselves. It's a horribly offensive thing to say and disablist in the extreme. Think yourselves lucky that your children were born without disability but don't ever think it is because your parenting is superior enough to prevent it.

Kiri you are truly fab. Everything you said x 1000!