to take my DS out of pre school because they say he is needs 'extra support'.

[Elvisina]

My 3 yr old DS has always been on the lively side! His idea of heaven is being allowed to just run through a park, woods or along a beach, preferably with some older children. He very rarely shows an interest in any kind of ?mark making? (despite our best efforts ? we have enough arts and crafts stuff in this house to start up our own nursery). He had been quite a few months behind with his speech but his language has recently taken off in a big way! A recent visit to a speech therapist reassured me he is/will be fine.
Anyway, this April he started at a local pre school for 2 and a half days a week. It?s a new pre school that is attached to a primary school which only opened 2 years ago. They?ve just received a very good Ofsted and the resources are great. I was so delighted to get him in there and he absolutely loves it, running into the playground each morning with a massive smile on his face. However, over the last few weeks, I?ve been feeling increasingly uneasy about how they think he?s doing. Whenever I made a friendly enquiry to his teacher I?ve had rather crisp, negative responses such as ?He doesn?t like joining in activities, especially if they?re led by an adult. He?s just not really ready? and ?I?m like a broken record having to tell him all the time to put his coat on?. Nothing positive (and I know I?m biased but he is damn cute!). Last week I decided to phone up for a chat about how he?s doing, basically expecting some reassurance along the lines of, ?he?s happy and friendly and we?re working on getting him to use his ?listening ears?? etc however it turned into a serious talk about how they have been preparing documentation to get him ?extra support? because he wants to play outside all the time and doesn?t want to join in the teacher led activities. Language such as ?he needs a different learning path? was used. Apparently he stood out from the other children who were all happy to listen to teacher led activities. I was devastated and I know it?s ridiculous but I cried! It really hurt that they felt he was so different from the others. I mentioned that I had noticed there were loads more girls than boys and she said she hadn?t noticed this as a particular issue but in his class picture on their website there are 9 girls and 3 boys!

My DH thinks we should just accept the extra help and not worry about it but I now feel as though perhaps this isn?t the place for my DS. I don?t even feel as though they like him very much. I took him out of a lovely, friendly nursery where they seemed to really ?get? him and like him to go to this new pre school. I?m now considering sending him back there. Thing is, he loves it and I could be doing him a disservice by not letting him have this ?extra support?. I honestly hadn?t realised that he would be required to take part in so many teacher led activities. I thought he got to play all day! What?s wrong with him wanting to play outside for 2 hours pretending to be a pirate? (I?m a teacher myself ? secondary ? so should have known better really). I keep looking at my wonderful boy who I honestly, honestly, honestly don?t think there is anything wrong with and feeling upset that they?ve made me feel as though he is somehow ?failing?/different. I?m going in next week to observe him and discuss his ?learning path? but actually I just feel like I want to remove him. Would that be ridiculously unreasonable of me? Am I just being too sensitive?

[ThreeMusketeers]

cory, how very kind of you, dear, but thank you, I'm sure I can manage.

The fact remains that my acquaintances/friends are from very similar backgrounds and I am happy to keep it that way.

[tethersend]

I would ask the teachers for a meeting and then ask for a detailed explanation of how your son's needs are above and beyond what the EYFS details, i.e. where they are encouraged to choose their own activities.

I think it's important to ascertain how much time is spent on teacher-led activities (at this stage it should be minimal), and how much is spent on free choice activities. The children should have access to outside play for most of the day and in all weathers- is this happening? Choosing outside play all day at 3yo is not on its own indicative of any sort of problem, and should be actively encouraged. Children's skills can be developed by setting up particular activities outside as well as inside.

If you are happy after that conversation that the preschool is following the EYFS curriculum correctly and that your DS' needs are above and beyond those of a typical 3yo, request a referral to the Educational Psychologist or the borough's Early Years Intervention team. The school will need to involve other professionals anyway if they are considering applying for extra support for him.

[cory]

So you don't know anyone whose children have SN, and are happy to keep it that way, and this gives you the knowledge that it is really easy to access support for those who do?

[tethersend]

Attending the attached preschool does not give priority for admission to the school.

[tethersend]

Attending the attached preschool does not give priority for admission to the school.

[cestlavielife]

there is nothing wrong with him playing outside for two hours being a pirate if at home or childminder and you agree that; it is a problem if it's a pre school and they timetabled for the children to be indoors doing art or storytime. and yes in such a setting they need all the children to be attending - without one on one support they cant have one child outside doing their own pirate thing for two hours...it isnt set up for that is it?

up to you really - but you would be silly to refuse additional support if it has been idenitifed that your son might benefit from it.

you can keep him out of school til his fifth birthday, you can home school him, you can make your own choices.

but what they offering is a chance to get extra support which might enable him to get the best out of this particular pre school. go and listen to them. then decide what you want to do.

[tethersend]

"and yes in such a setting they need all the children to be attending - without one on one support they cant have one child outside doing their own pirate thing for two hours...it isnt set up for that is it? "

It should be if it is following the EYFS curriculum, which it is required to do.

[ThreeMusketeers]

cory, I am simply going by what OP has stated in her posts.

I am not advising anyone who has children with diagnosed learning disability, there are professionals who do that.

From the information OP has posted, it seems that parental guidance would help OPs DC to become more focused - well, as much as one could expect from a 3 year old.
I also agree that the school seems to be quite negative about that little boy - as if his boisterous behaviour could mar their Outstanding score and are too keen to have him labelled SN.

It is impossible for teachers not to find anything positive to say about a 3 year old child unless they choose not to look for it.

[cory]

I read that article and what it seems to be is a mix-up between the schools' definition of SEN and the medical profession's definition of SN.

In schools, SEN is "anything that interferes with a child's ability to access education". So, this could be a medical problem or a disability, but it could equally be trauma from bereavement or from sexual abuse or from witnessing your mother being murdered by your father.

So yes, ministers are right to say that some of these needs ?could be met with strong teaching and pastoral care?.

But they fail to mention that there is no budget for this pastoral care other than the SEN budget. If needs are to be met by pastoral care, then somebody has to provide that pastoral care. And that somebody has to be funded.

The teacher cannot simultaneously teach maths to the other 29 and provide pastoral care to the child who is traumatised by the horrific things he has witnessed in his home. And unless somebody is providing care for that child, he may well be a danger both to himself and to others.

[Hullygully]

[cory]

Not of course suggesting that the above scenarios are anything to do with the OP.

But the one thing that Ofsted inspectors often fail to recognise about SEN support is that not offering support becomes more expensive in the long run.

My ds had reading support at primary school. Which means he can keep up at secondary, no special measures are required, he is likely to pass his GCSE's. This is considerably cheaper for the taxpayers than to have him drop out unable to gain the qualifications that are needed to get a job in today's society. All for a couple of extra sessions with a TA. I call that money well spent.

Dd who is physically disabled did not receive the support she needed in primary school. Which led to her having a breakdown in secondary and almost dropping out of school. She has cost the taxpayers large sums of money in CAHMS therapy, extra work by the school, hospital visits etc. It would have been so much cheaper to have given her a helping hand a few years earlier. Taxpayers (of which I am one) have good reason to be disgruntled about this.

[cory]

sorry, cross-posted, Musketeers.

still:

if you read the SN board, you will find that many, many parents who have children with diagnosed SN started on the way to seeking a diagnosis because the school/preschool spotted the early signs of a problem- which then went on growing

children with SN do not necessarily come labelled out of the womb- dd was nearly 10 before her physical disorder was diagnosed, before that she was "a child without properly diagnosed SN"

ds does not have diagnosed learning difficulties, but he was beginning to slip behind and a small amount of focused help at the right time put him back on track- potentially saving the taxpayers large sums of money

[DangoDays]

Nurseries/pre schools vary massively. It may just not be the best fit. Sounds like your ds likes a lot of physical and self led play. Great. Does his previous nursery follow this model?

I know it is often the case that teacher led groups with a focus on numeracy/phonics are often part of a school as the school's long term focus (SATs) often has significant impact on nursery model. So that might be the angle the school are coming from. Thus shaping the nature of the advice given and recommendations given.

I don't really agree with the idea it sets him up for a fall if he can't do these things this early. Not all kids meet this at the same point. My understanding is that nursery schools not attached to schools tend to have a more independent play emphasis. Your boy sounds like great fun. Good luck.

[MalcolmTuckersMum]

OP - forgive me I have to go out now and will read the whole thread when I get back. I just wanted to tell you this. In primary school they called in the Educational Psychologist because my son ' wouldn't sit on the carpet ' at story time. Yes really. At secondary they said he was behind, distracted, needed an IEP and so on. I didn't believe a word of it and never let him know that he was anything but wonderful. He got through school with 10 GCSEs. College with A and AS levels. He's about to start an MA in International Relations and Security at a respected University from where he just graduated with an honours degree. Not blowing anyone's trumpet here OP - I just want to salute you and your gut instincts and tell you to never let go of those instincts. Good luck !

[cory]

There is a depressing attitude on this thread that needing support or having any kind of SN would make you "anything but wonderful".

fwiw I teach postgraduate students with some kind of SN every year. I had never considered that it would make them less wonderful. If I failed to provide adequate support, then that would make me "anything but wonderful", not them.

[shewhowines]

That's a lovely story cory and turned out well for you, but it does sound like he was distracting others throughout his school life. Intervention may have made his classmates life a little bit easier though.

[MalcolmTuckersMum]

And you know what cory - I deliberately delayed going out to see if someone would take what I said about MY son as an insult and slur against everyone with special or different needs. Thank you for proving my point. Do you honestly really having bugger all better to do than hover over everything looking for imagined slights? What a fucking life.

[Lollydaydream]

cory may I applaud your eloquence and patience on this thread.

[maja00]

tethersend - the EYFS doesn't require settings to give children constant access to the outside, or to be able to do their own thing all the time. So do to greater or lesser extents, it depends on the setting.

Some nurseries might be very free flow, let the children do whatever they want, have rolling snack times etc. Others might have designated free flow times but also insist on circle time activities and everyone sitting down together for snack. Others might be quite timetabled and have a greater emphasis on teacher-led activities. All can work within the EYFS.

[cory]

It is not an imagined slight on me, Malcolm: I have never been diagnosed with any SN whatsoever.

I am thinking of all my courageous, committed, hard-working students. Many of whom are only diagnosed in the first year of university, sometimes later than that- but if you start asking them questions you find out how hard they have had to struggle to get where they are, and how a little support would have made their lives much easier and left them better prepared.

It is not an unusual occurrence for me to realise during the first week of the academic term that a student is severely dyslexic, just from the very basic tasks we do in the first few lessons- and then be told a little later that they have just sought help and been diagnosed, and I think "why the fuck did nobody notice before?"

[cory]

shewhowines Fri 05-Jul-13 15:42:27
"That's a lovely story cory and turned out well for you, but it does sound like he was distracting others throughout his school life. Intervention may have made his classmates life a little bit easier though."

Are you mixing up several children in my posts? Ds was the one with minor reading difficulties who had a TA to give him extra reading lessons. Not the boy who was traumatised and needed constant watching.

[AmberLeaf]

There is a depressing attitude on this thread that needing support or having any kind of SN would make you "anything but wonderful

Strange isn't it?

I have three children, all were encouraged, two did great, no help needed. one needed help, no reflection on my parenting, he just has SNs. All three are 'wonderful'

OP, engage with the school and see what they say, in your position I would not oppose the extra help offered. it won't do him any harm and it may just help.

[AmberLeaf]

cory, I think shewhowines mixed you up with malcomtucker

[ImNotBloody14]

It makes me really sad to hear that a 3 year old just wantjng to be outside should have 'extra help'- he's 3- at tht age the world is so bloody exciting who can blame him for wanting to see as much of it as possible- i have an outdoorsy one and hes starting p1 in sept- tbh i think he'll struggle to focus and if he does then i'll pull him out and let him run his legs off for another year- finger painting can wait another 12 months

[Elvisina]

Just sending quick message from my phone as out all day. Thank you so much for your detailed responses. I'm really grateful. I will go in next week with an open mind but also follow my gut instinct. I would trust his old nursery to be honest with me and pick up on issues. If I went back there I would tell them exactly what the new pre school had said. Lots to think about. Thanks.