To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

But you see, that pisses me off.

I didn't need 'encouraging' to join the debating team and win the debates. I did that by myself. I didn't need 'encouraging' to get a good degree and go for the profession I wanted. I did it myself. I never felt disparaged or put down for being a woman.

I think that is just underlining message that women are these weak little wall flowers, sitting in a corner until someone 'encourages' them out.

Bollocks to that. I certainly won't be teaching my daughter to wait for 'encouragement'. She can get on and do it if she has the aptitude.

spero I specifically chose the word 'mentoring' because it seems to be an acknowledged fact that men, in general, attract mentoring from more senior people while women don't. Mentoring has a positive career effect and is a big factor when it comes to getting promotion.

I think of it more as addressing some of the structural issues that women face, while I see the 'prizes for women' as being the patronising approach.

It's great that you didn't need encouraging, Spero, really it is. But might you be prepared to concede that some women do?

That seems to be the problem here: just because you (and other posters) personally have not felt discrimination or disadvantage on account of your gender, you appear reluctant to acknowledge that others have.

Very much enjoying the debate on this thread. But yams, your post that if they wolf-whistled - yippee made me

Yes, Buffy and in my university Athena Swan is being expanded beyond STEM. I think that's great.

LOL at tease Buffy

I'm disapointed to be honest. I was thinking of a list comparable to the classic 'checklist' by Peggy McIntosh. I guess I'll be left wanting but the point of the exercise was really to see how far you could go with it.

The crux, in my mind is whether we believe respctive privileges are there purely because of male dominance or something that was borne from mutual understanding/agreement. I believe it's down to POV's.

For instance, you see war as a slight on women's emotional
stability and strength. This may be so. However, does it not occur to you that maybe women were kept at home because women are the limiting factor with our species? Thus protecting the female has always been the priority.

Think about it. If invaders were attacking your shores and chances were that you could lose huge amounts of your people, who would you prioritise to ensure the future of your race? One man can fertilise 100 women (although it would be tiring lol) but how many children can one woman bear in a lifetime?

Women/children have always been the priority and that in itself is a privilege when men have typically been the disposable part of society.

I have found Spero's comments really interesting as they would seem to back up my assumptions i.e. that the welfare of women is prioritised.

I was wondering what peoples' views were on car insurance; female drivers have been shown to be far safer than males (especially at 17 - 25 age range) and yet insurance companies are not allowed to offer quotes that are based upon gender.

and

And the car insurance thing once again, presumably insurers will still be permitted to offer different premiums based on age?

The disallowance of sex discrimination in insurance means female drivers will be subsidising male ones, on the other hand male pensioners will be subsidising female ones, so I think women still come out ahead overall. (Although I can't take into account relative amounts of money men and women are bunging into car insurance as opposed to pensions, so can't be sure. I think it was an Austrian or Italian female Green party MP who was behind the changes, presumably she calculated the chages were in women's interest.)

I read something about the Obamacare reforms recently, it seems that in some ways they've gone further than Europe. Health insurers can't discriminate on grounds of sex, and age discrimination is limited in that they can only charge the old three times as much as the young, when in fact they cost something like five times as much. (All figures from memory, so may be dodgy.)

I must admit to not having kept up with the whole thread but do agree with Spero that oppression comes from education and class. I read all about the 'patriarchy' and am doing my family history and think that I can't see where my agricultural labourers had any part in it. They were very poor and merely struggling to survive and keep out of the workhouse.
I think it is still all about education and class.

I also hate the idea that women are 'weak flowers' and have to be encouraged. Just get in and do it!

Maybe workmen in the home seek out the man as someone to talk to because the woman sees them as beneath notice! I am utterly amazed at the present thread where people won't offer a workman a hot drink and think it normal, whereas I call it rude.

I think different people have different ideas about what a feminist is.

I wouldn't label myself. I have opinions and views on lots of things, including how people ( not just men and not just women) should be treated.
I think its nice when people open doors for people! Not men for women in particular.

If you think all people should be equal then whether that's women or men or whoever, doesn't really matter!

Labels set people apart. Groups set people apart.

I know my boundaries - other peoples will be different - but everyone should be taught how to respect themselves and others and stand up for what they believe.

LOL Buffy. It's ok I don't want a writin biatch. You've done enough writing in this thread (much appreciated BTW )

Come on though, you've been watching Game of Thrones. How many men have died already vs the women? And what happened when King's Landing was under attack and the queen etc. all hid down below?

But jokes aside, why do you think the human race has been so successful to date? If men really did set the system up for their own gain then why not send the women out to fight wars, carry out the most dangerous of tasks and be the disposable class?

Maybe it was worked out through trial and error that the men who sent the women out ended up getting their tribes wiped out first. Maybe others saw the stupidity in what they did and forced the women to stay home?

I think it's pretty obvious that women are the limiting factor in our species so protecting them from death, maternal/infant mortality and all other killers must be priority. After all, isn't it the purpose/aim of any species to fight for survival?

feminism is not the idea that women are weak flowers.

London The disallowance of sex discrimination in insurance means female drivers will be subsidising male ones fair enough - insurance is all about subsidising others on the basis they subsidise you if you have accident.

we need to look at the barriers that remain, while acknowledging the progress made in many countries.

'Why should that continue?'

Because men are still protectors.

Buffy, yay, I accept my own feminist badge!

I too am surprised that tradesmen/tradespeople still seek out the men to ask them questions. Personally , they would need to in this household, but I should imagine they dont need to in many of them.

The thread has moved on a bit to stuff I dont know about, so if I dont post much more, thank you all for the thread.

When men are no longer needed for that role, society will change. When you see a picture of some kind of disaster, natural or otherwise, and you see 50% (at least) of women out there..running into buildings, carrying injured, using brute strength to reach the people trapped inside demolished buildings....then you know society doesn't see men alone as protectors.