To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

Buffy

When you say things like:

? the system is the problem, not the people. People perpetuate it, but they aren't doing so on purpose, they are just making their choices, surviving, trying to be happy, guided by what they have learned from what they see around them, by what they feel. And because the system made them, they make those choices guided by it.?

You have done exactly what GirlWritesWhat is talking about. You have effectively removed all responsibility from individuals by blaming some outside factor. There is no consideration that we are all fully capable of shaping our lives in the ways that align with our own values/beliefs.

I will most definitely miss you Buffy!
It is far more interesting and thought provoking on here with the ReasonableFeminist, and others on here, than it has been before.
When I first came on MN, I used to read a lot about it, as it was an area that I had little or no knowledge of.
But I stopped after a while, partly for the biology reason, partly because they couldnt agree amongst themselves, and partly because, uh hum, dare I say it, because to my mind, there are some UnReasonableFeminists.

I think there's a real difference from portraying or perceiving women as wimpy and dependent - and afraid to enter a dirty, outdoor type job - and women feeling intimidated by a traditional all-male working environment, and women feeling that they are not taken seriously by other men working in that environment.

I'm by no means a wimpy woman - but I have felt intimidated on occasion taking my car into the garage. Girly calendars on the wall (probably not so common now - but very common in the past), groups of men in overalls staring at you, I even got fucking wolf-whistled once.

If I had had a burning desire to be a female mechanic - I've no doubt that I could have. No doubt at all - but I would have had to fight to be taken seriously in a way that men entering car mechanics just don't.

Can someone describe the word "agency" a bit more please?

It is not being used here, like I think of it is everyday life. I am confused.

picture - I am not surprised. DP is a (male) HT and being male commands respect in a way being a woman doesn't.

and I think (most?) men dont like to back down to a women.

I am the expert at what i do and started the company from scratch - so I can & have done all the jobs (technical). if a member of staff cannot complete a task I will always assist them so the task is completed. and it always is. i know my stuff and i don't fail.

so I am clearly the subject expert. everyone else is male.

the following has happened a number of times:

someone (male) will start in a junior role. i have 17 years experience they have say 2 years. they suggest we solve a problem in a particular way. i listen and if appropriate, say an alternative would be better and explain the reasoning why - so they understand how to come to the right conclusion next time. i am educating them.

but they will come back with reasons why they think their approach is better. they don't know our clients, our area etc etc.

at this point i used to try to convince them my approach was better. but it did not work. the gap between our experience and knowledge was huge. i would not challenge someone who knew vastly more than me on a topic and who earnt lots more money....because you cannot really argue with that....

but they always seemed to think they knew better for no logical reason.

now, i don't try to convince them, i just restate my case and say we need to move on. if they continue, i just shrug and restate my case again and again say we need to move on.

it works much better than actually discussing the two sets of ideas.

I'm really interested in all the views on this thread - I would probably say that I'm a feminist if pushed, but have struggled to understand why I'm uncomfortable saying so. I can see that there are lots of artificial barriers that women face, but as a middle-class white woman I also know that I have a lot of privilege, and huge swathes of the population have their own set of barriers to overcome. Like the boys in care or working-class men. I think I'm far more fortunate than much of the population (although that doesn't stop me noticing that the men in my position are more fortunate than me).

And to pick up on a point made by buffy, I'm a scientist in a male-dominated field, and I've noticed that to be a successful woman you really do need to be better than the men around you. Both to get pushed towards the field in the first place, and then to stay in it. Plenty of mediocre men manage to rise through the ranks, but by and large the mediocre women leave for 'easier' careers.

Also, I like the GirlWritesWhat post about the victim status that we apply to women if we're not careful. It's all too easy to feel like a victim if you're told you are one. Along a similar vein, there's a lot of talk at the moment about women in science. There are schemes for encouraging women, women-only prizes etc., and while some of these are well thought out and really do try and level the playing field, some of them just leave me wondering whether I'm good enough to compete with the men or whether I should know my place and stick to the women-only initiatives.

Agency refers to the capacity of individuals to act independently and to make their own free choices.

I've been thinking about the counter-argument of pointing to groups in society who face other/worse discrimination and disadvantage - something articulated powerfully by Spero and others. I don't see how objections of that sort c

Sorry, had to take dog out for walk and have just skimmed - but I wanted to add that there are many women like me - who take on men every day and are happy to do it and do not feel intimidated - quite the opposite, I positively enjoy it. We will inevitably 'see' things differently from women who have been abused by men.

I also think my disability maybe gives me an 'advantage'- most men don't 'see' me as sexual or someone they would like to shag so they probably approach me uninfluenced by those kinds of considerations.

Argh, stupid phone! What I was trying to say us that the 'whataboutery' is really a way of avoiding engagement with the topic at hand. I've seen it in other contexts and it just leads to stagnation of debate.

x- posts with Buffy.

The internet ate my long post to Buffy, but essentially it said re. men in dresses...I do not wear a niquab or a native indian headdress. Should muslim women or native indians surmise that this is because it's shameful to be thought of as a muslim or native indian, or will they accept that it's simply because society has conditioned me not to. Should I fight against that conditioning?

oh, and the lets eat cake response..

That is the difference between you and me running.

I regularly go in car places, tyre places, spare parts places etc etc.
And not once have I felt remotely intimidated.
Cant see for the life of why any woman would.
Posters or no posters.

And it bothers me that you do.
Especially a feminist woman.

Buffy

I can't comment on GirlWritesWhat obviously. However, what you are saying is that these 'barriers' are perpetuated by people that don't know any better because the 'system' makes them into what they are.

Thus the system makes men into oppressors and women into victims.

This is the basic premise that I don't agree with. This is what forms the baseline for feminism. Everything else is rooted to this so all the talk about barriers etc. is almost immaterial if your foundations are (IMHO) shaky from the outset.

This takes us back to the OP and whether she feels it unreasonable that feminism is seen as a dirty word. I don't see it as particularly dirty but I don't agree with the basic tennets, which tend to shape all arguments/discussions

'but I would have had to fight to be taken seriously in a way that men entering car mechanics just don't.'

Yes, but the same is true for a man wanting to be a beautician, or some other traditionally female role. It's as much of an issue as you make of it, surely. If that was me wanting to be a mechanic, I would seek to be as good as I could be, to prove male dissenters wrong. I wouldn't say 'but it not fair that I have to prove myself'.

Maybe it's not fair, but such is life. Buddhism teaches this. Life is suffering. We all fight against this because we feel it shouldn't be. But the evidence from time immemorial shows that this is the case.

I'm very pleased that you've never in your life felt intimidated by a man or a group of males, yams - but I know I'm not alone in this.

I agree totally with rubyanddiamond's post. Women have to be so much better than the men to succeed in male-dominated environments. It isn't a level playing field - and maybe some women don't necessarily want to be fighting all the time to be taken as seriously as the men - so they leave for a job in an industry with a more level playing field, like teaching or whatever.

I don't think that's the fault or weakness of the woman, - it's the playing field that's the problem.

I would seek to be as good as I could be, to prove male dissenters wrong and many women do but we cannot all do that all of the time..... and why should we have to?

black people, disabled people have, and continue, to fight for equality but the fact they have to is not ok.

'Life is suffering' - fuck it! Let's not bother trying to improve anything then!

'Sigmund what would happen to a male muslim who decided to wear a niquab while going about his daily business?'

I don't know.