To get annoyed when other women say "I'm not a feminist"

[Nickabilla]

As if it's a dirty word and a shameful thing to be? I hear it every now and then and always question it. Someone said it today and I'm annoyed again.

Do some women not realise that women didn't used to be allowed to go to university, get divorced, own property or vote?

Rant over.

'Life is suffering' - fuck it! Let's not bother trying to improve anything then!'

No, buddhists do not say that. More of a 'don't invest all your emotional energy in something you may not be able to change'. Not don't try at all.

Buffy - love the name change!

I'm off now as I have far too much to do today - but I do keep dipping in and out of this thread and finding it interesting and frustrating in equal measures.

Agree with your post at 11:29.

Buffy, yes I am happy in my feminie role.
Yes, I interpret the reaction from mechanics differently.

I join them in their banter. I get to know them. If they ever wolf whistled, yippee! [But I would tell my DH, just in case the man went any further, further down the line]. And btw, my DH is very clever at buttering women up if he wants a favour, business wise, or wants or needs a woman to go out of their way on something. He also tells me that he has done that. I dont have a problem with that.

And further on from runnings post further.

See, I dont think I would have to fight to be taken seriously to be a car mechanis in the garage. That may be a bit naive of me. But if I joined them, and joked with them, rather than be frightened of them, I dont perceive a problem.

'We are saying that it is not fair that women should have to prove themselves to be better than men in order to gain acceptance.'

But who is saying that women have to be better than men? Who is saying it?

Would say, though, as an opposite of that, that I can see and acknowledge that some industries or sectors are sexist.

I remember the police being called institutionally racist. And hardly anyone disagreed.
It doesnt take much of a leap from that, along with other things we read, such as on here, that banking or journalism or whatever is institutionally sexist.
And yes, that is really not on.
And yes, dare I say it, even I would struggle!

Sigmund. Quite. I have struggled with that too, during this thread.

I's say rather that the system gives men privileges that women don't have.

I'd say that the system is set up to give both men and women privileges and that, more often than not, feminists do not acknowlege any.

I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, and I have thought this on another feminism thread, that would it be right to say that some feminists, and women in general I suppose, are frightened of men?

The thing is I, and I suspect Spero and Sigmund, are not frightened.

If you are frightened by something or someone or some group, then the whole perspective changes I would have thought.

I need to think about my response to that one, unfortunately I have to pop out. I'll pop back (if the thread isn't full) later.

Any at all?

Isn't that the same premise used against men who do not 'see' their privilege?

i.e. I have the privilege of not knowing that I have privilege. Or words to that extent.

I join them in their banter. I get to know them. If they ever wolf whistled, yippee! [But I would tell my DH, just in case the man went any further, further down the line]

I just can't agree with that. It sounds like you're just congratulating yourself on being "strong enough" to deal with this behaviour, and not feel intimidated by it - but then you'll call on your dh if this behaviour goes to far (!)

It's the men's behaviour that should be addressed. Always. It's totally inappropriate for garage mechanics to wolf-whistle a female customer. Always. It's not the women's responsibility to learn ways to deal with this behaviour.

ruby, re the science prizes for women.

See, I would look at that differently.
I would think "well, if they want to give me an extra leg up, either, "you fool, I dont need it thanks", or "thanks very much ta!""

Either way I would take it and be glad.
I most certainly would not sit there thinking "well perhaps I am not good enough to compete", or "I'll stay in my corner" or whatever.

And again , that bothers me.

All of this has left me wondering what I would do, if I or my DD was in a sexist industry.

I think I would join forces with others.
I am not sure that one person alone, could tackle this.
I would carefully log examples of things said and done.
I think I would repeatedly name and shame the industry privately, in the media if able and necessary.
All this is probably easier said than done.

Sometimes, and I could be wrong here it may only be a small number of people nearer the top that are doing it?
I would investigate.

On another thread, I learnt that it is legal to tape other people without their permission. Dont think the tape is admissible in court though.
But, just saying

When I said 'any at all?' I meant 'please can you elaborate on the privilege that women have, relative to men, that feminists deny?'

Maybe I've assumed you to be different but the general consensus I've read from many feminists is the fact that women have any privilege at all.

I'm not going to give any up but it would be interesting to hear from a feminist what privileged you may acknowledge. Not just one's like, 'I'm alive and able bodied' but specific gender based ones.

yay

yams re science prizes , I certainly think that's the way they were intended (good for women and a leg up). But I still think that anything telling women they need extra help or should have their own versions of things can have unintended consequences.

I'd far rather the money went on encouraging and mentoring women to compete for the 'main' prize alongside the men.

But, in general, I just mean that there's a fine line between helping and casting women as helpless victims of society.

Yams, I like your style.

I agree that a lot of difficulties may stem from fear. And sometimes that fear is reasonably felt. But what worries me in my work is the fear that is generated by the narrative 'men are violent, men are oppressors of women'.

I thus see a lot of younger men especially held at arms length and treated with suspcion (even contempt) by the women in the system. Yet I am able to talk to them and them to me because I treat them as a human being not a 'man' not an 'oppressor'. Countless times I have been told that security will be present outside my conference room because my client is a 'danger'.

And what do I find? often a gobby teenager who is all mouth and no trousers who yes, makes threats and quite ugly ones at that but does no more.

One male client said he was going to kill his ex. I said that I would have to take that very seriously and report it to the police. Did he really mean that? He backed down immediately.

I am not stupid or naive enough to think there aren't really dangerous murderous men out there. But they won't be engaging in family courts. They will be in prison. I meet the disaffected, the disadvantaged and the miserable. And they are treated badly because they are seen as representatives of this Great Oppressing Class which is just laughable.

I have never felt frightened in their company. Never been hit or threatened with violence.

I do continue to think that men like this are victims of a narrative that wishes to place women's oppression at the forefront of everything.

I think the more potent examples of oppression in THIS country are ones of education and class. Not gender.