to find it really irritating when people who earn a lot say...

[Doodledumdums]

...But I work really hard for the money I get.

Sorry, totally unimportant, but it really irritates me!

I have a few friends who earn quite a lot of money, and I don't begrudge them this at all, but I just find it really insulting when they say 'But I do work really hard for it.' I also work hard! I feel like it implies that I don't! Okay, I am on maternity leave at the moment, so am not actually at work, (although i'd say that to some extent, looking after a baby is harder than my actual job anyway!) but when I am working, I am usually in the office by 8am, and often don't leave until 7pm, and I earn literally a fraction of what some of my friends earn. That is fine, I knew that when I got in to my chosen industry, but it doesn't mean that I don't work as hard as they do or deserve more!

They don't need to be defensive about it at all! It is totally fine that they earn what they do, I just don't understand why they can't be a bit more gracious about it and say something like 'Yes, I am lucky that I have a job I love which pays well.'

Oh I don't know, maybe I am being unreasonable and ultra-sensitive. I am sure they don't mean to imply that I don't work hard, but it just feels like that sometimes. Totally a first world issue!

P.S- I have self esteem and anxiety issues...which is possibly why I find this upsetting!

Well to be honest it annoys me when people have the attitude that others are "lucky" to have a high paying job.

There's no luck involved in getting a high paid job.

I don't have a high flying city type job. People that do aren't lucky, they're either cleverer than me, have more qualifications, have worked harder, are better at previous jobs or are more career minded. Probably all of those. So yes, they probably have worked harder.

I'm sure I work as hard during the hours I'm actually at work so I know what you mean by that. But maybe they work differently iykwim? DH earns double what I do and sits at a desk while drinking coffee a lot. I don't have time to have a wee and am stressed beyond belief. So I do work very hard but I don't think that dh is lucky to have his job. He worked very hard in less well paid jobs to get where he is.

they're either cleverer than me, have more qualifications, have worked harder, are better at previous jobs or are more career minded. Probably all of those.

AND they are also lucky. Because they could have all of the aptitude and all of the hard work and circumstances could still have arranged themselves in a different way.

Sorry, but luck is definitely involved imo! Not exclusively of course, hard work is generally also necessary, but luck is definitely a contributing factor!

There's no luck involved in getting a high paid job.

I don't have a high flying city type job. People that do aren't lucky, they're either cleverer than me, have more qualifications, have worked harder, are better at previous jobs or are more career minded. Probably all of those. So yes, they probably have worked harder.

Are you kidding me?

Have you not heard of the bank bailout?

These people are not uniformly clever. Your statement is just astonishing to me.

I just don't understand people getting all tetchy at the mention of luck. This does not discount success, it's merely a statement of fact.

VivaLeBeaver Mon 01-Jul-13 08:34:57
"Well to be honest it annoys me when people have the attitude that others are "lucky" to have a high paying job.

There's no luck involved in getting a high paid job.

I don't have a high flying city type job. People that do aren't lucky, they're either cleverer than me, have more qualifications, have worked harder, are better at previous jobs or are more career minded. Probably all of those. So yes, they probably have worked harder."

Is there no luck involved in being born with the kind of brain that makes you better at your job?

But then luck is involved in all cases then, there are a lot of people unemployed so technically it is luck that one cleaner gets a job over another.

It is not luck that I qualified in my field, it is hard work to qualify, it is not necessarily luck that I got my job over other candidates but I suppose it could be considered luck that I realised I wanted to do this particular job and that I was academically able to pass the exams. I think saying it is luck belittles people's achievements some what but there could be some luck involved in what opportunities present themselves but the rest I believe is down to the individual.

Yes, the world class athletes may well have worked harder than some of the almost-but-not-quite-world-class-athletes. But somebody who is born with dodgy joints or dyspraxia, or even somebody born with ordinary not-very-athletic genes is never going to make a world class athlete even if they train three times as hard as the top most athlete.

I had a friend in Sixth Form who worked far far harder than me, who was totally focused, did exactly as she was told, got extra tutoring, gave it everything. I rarely did any revision at all, seldom remembered my homework. I still got the A's and she got the B's and C's, because that was the capacity she had. Her hard work ensured she wasn't stuck with D's and E's, which was an excellent result for her.

I see university students who work themselves into breakdowns because they have been taught to believe that anybody can have what they want as long as they work hard enough. So when their essays are still not very good and they still get low marks, they think they have let themselves down and that there must be some way of working even longer into the night to achieve the same results as the top performers.

It's not luck that my DH runs a very busy business where others fail, his business has lots of competitors in the area. I can say he works very hard and he bloody well does. He has never had anything given to him, he is passionate and obsessive about getting things done right.

Coming from a poor family, he has used his intelligence to get where he is today.

I don't think it belittles achievement at all. I actually think it is arrogant not to accept luck as a contributing factor, or else it implies that everyone could be in the same position if they had just worked harder, which is simply not true.

I have a badly paid but essentially good and respectable job, and I consider myself very lucky to have it. It required a degree, which I was lucky enough to be able to get, it requires a certain skill set which I am lucky to have, and a lot of equally good people applied for it, but I was lucky that my boss chose me. Had there been a different interviewer or a slightly different set of circumstances, I would maybe not have got it. So that's all a lot of luck! I would suggest that I am not alone, and that actually all of the above luck factors apply to most people in most jobs, including highly paid supposedly successful roles! I don't really understand why it is bad to admit it?

Fair point, I guess what I was saying is that in that case luck applies to everyone, high paid or not.

I guess I feel defensive about it some times as I do not consider I am 'lucky' to be in a fortunate position as it is a combination of a number of factors - hard work, good choices and a mixture of both good and bad luck that has landed DH and I where we are.

*Well to be honest it annoys me when people have the attitude that others are "lucky" to have a high paying job.

There's no luck involved in getting a high paid job.*

Of course there is, especially in this day and age. Several of the people I know in well-paying jobs were lucky enough (born earlier) to get good positions several years ago, or they knew someone to get a foot in the door, or they happened to be in the right place at the right time when someone retired. You might also be lucky enough to have certain skills that others don't.

It's often a mixture of things, including forward-thinking, the willingness to work long hours (but yes, people on a low wage often work long hours too) and people skills, but it's a bit disingenuous to think that luck doesn't play a part too.

anyone thinking there's no luck involved is a fool.

humans don't and simply can not control everything.

however smart you are if you are born in a country poorer or much poorer than the UK you may not have access to education or other resources.

where you are born or what circumstances you are born into is pure good or bad luck.
none of us chooses that and it will determine a huge part of who you will eventually become, for better or for worse.

it is nature and nurture that form us all. you will do well or not so well somwtimes because of your good luck or despite of your bad luck.

You can not deny that there is an element of luck, but of course it isn't the all determining factor either - no one said it was!

It's harder these days, and luck increasingly plays a role.

I would say I am modestly successful (financially) and there are major events of "luck" that figure into this.

1. I graduated from business school in the US in 1997. You had to be a moron to not get a job paying over 100K.

1. I went into IT/management consulting. There were fewer women around in those days, and I was pretty. Now I'm 41 (and not so pretty anymore) and I'm still in IT consulting, in a parachute in/parachute out capacity - and I'm in a much better position to see the effect that a pretty woman has in a work environment.

1. We bought an expensive house that we could only barely afford in London in 2005, and again in 2008; both doubled.

Without these three strokes of luck (1 and 3 figure more prominently I suspect), my own contribution to our family finances would have been far less significant.

melika Mon 01-Jul-13 09:06:25

"Coming from a poor family, he has used his intelligence to get where he is today."

Exactly. And if he had been born without intelligence, he wouldn't have been able to use it to get there.

@ sam

"You might also be lucky enough to have certain skills that others don't."

I would have thought that the skills you possess are entirely down to the choices you have made in life. I did not become an engineer because I was 'lucky', I became an engineer because I chose the right GCSEs, A Levels and degree course from a decent university. On the flipside, I am crap at playing the guitar, mostly due to the fact I rarely pick it up and practice, nothing to do with being lucky.

intelligence is not a genetic characteristic. scientist have recently discovered that the brain is much more plastic than previously thought.

i.e. how you use it determines its capabilities. like your muscles etc. (for people without disabilities)

"It's a funny thing, the more I practice the luckier I get"
Arnold Palmer (American Golfer. b.1929)

I agree that raw intelligence is probably less a result of luck than it is what you use your brain for. And, choosing engineering is an excellent example of creating your own luck.

Still, there are legions of people who will work hard and make good decisions their whole life, and never be met with success.

To say nothing of people who are born in extremely poor countries, for whom it's just a struggle to stay alive.

Dh and I do the same job, I find exams easy and do a few days cramming at the last minute, DH is dyslexic and finds it a struggle. He has to work every night for 6 months.

The end result is still the same so even the academic side is not purely luck.

I have changed my opinion based on this thread though and see how an element of luck comes into it but I do still find it offensive for others to suggest we are lucky to be where we are as often there has been a lot of sacrifice involved whatever the level of job.

FasterStronger No offence, but that is total rubbish! I worked so hard at school, and I got very good grades, but I do not remotely have a scientific brain and could not master sciences in a way that was necessary to become a vet which was my dream! Frankly I find it insulting that anyone could suggest that had I used my brain more that I could have achieved it, because it is a fact that I couldn't. Even if it was possible, the opportunities to study are finite, and given the amount of work required, even if I had possessed the capabilities, I would have drowned under the sheer amount of work and the limited time in which to do it. Therefore rendering it impossible.

I accepted this and am fine about it, and picked a career path which I was academically more naturally suited to and was within my capabilities, but it was still bloody hard work.

I cannot see levels of intelligence as anything other than a genetic characteristic. I think it is quite dangerous to suggest to children in particular that they can achieve anything if they put their mind to it and work hard enough, that is where shattered dreams, low self esteem and anxiety issues can stem from.

I cannot see levels of intelligence as anything other than a genetic characteristic

the latest research disagrees with you.

I think it is quite dangerous to suggest to children in particular that they can achieve anything if they put their mind to it and work hard enough I agree clearly there are limits - I am not suggesting anyone can be Stephen Hawkins.

and you need more than intelligence to succeed. e.g. resilience. but again this is a learnt characteristic.

Doodledumdums, intelligence isn't just science or math.

I can't speak for faster but I would gather she meant that within a certain band of raw intelligence, people can achieve different things based on what they set their mind to, and how much they stretch themselves. This doesn't apply to low IQ people, nor does it mean that people of normal intelligence are well-suited to a career in quantum mechanics (or similar).

I see I've cross posted with fasterstronger.

cu I can only presume sam meant to say talent or ability.
that's how I read it.

I make quilts, clothes, jewellery etc. I design them. It's easy for me. from the moment I have an idea I can see the whole thing.
I figure out the design, do the maths and spend hours, days weeks creating.

I learnt some of the technical aspects (mainly self-taught) but not only do I have an inborn talent for creativity I have the patience to complete each project.

I get loads of compliments ( if only I could make a living out of it..) but as I said it is easy for me.
others struggle to sew on a button and have no interest in learning.

so I have skills others don't ( and vica versa) but only because talent and interest coincided first. skills were built on those.

but I can't claim to know what sam meant. only what I read into it.

I didn't say that intelligence is just science or maths? I was just saying that those were areas I was lacking in order to get the career which I actually wanted.

I'm not sure that I really know what you mean by a raw level of intelligence? Obviously people can achieve different things based on how much they stretch and apply themselves, but there is a limit, and each persons limit is set at a different level. So two people could spend exactly the same amount of time and energy studying for something, but one may well achieve a lot more than the other because they are naturally more intelligent. I think it is important to realise your limitations, especially if you are very hard working, or else you will always strive for an unachievable goal.