Is it right to make a woman feel unclean?

[camel1]

I was saying 'thank you' to a male colleague and touched his upper arm as a reinforcement of that thanks. He recoiled in disgust, his body language, his facial expression and his yelp surprised me so much that I apologised profusely. The incident happened in front of many children, as I am a teacher at a school. And within a minute he had shook hands with a male colleague. Whether it was his intention or not, I felt that he felt I was unclean. I was/am greatly upset by this. I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa. However, I have lived in many different countries and cultures, and I adhered to their cultural rules and would never have reacted in such an offensive way. What do you think?

CrumbleWalnuts, do you think you can take a person's religion away from them?

Crumbled. Am I reading you right.
If you dont respect what a person does or believes, you ride roughshod over it and them?
You cant have many friends or family members left you approve of, do you.

i'm butting in to the conversation again, as it's taken a turn towards what people believe and think, values they hold etc. Someone upthread said that to listen to someone does not equate nodding your head. You can still disagree and offer a point of view that differs. It may give them food for thought and turn things around. I know that's happened to me in discussions, and I know that things I've said have afforded people a new think.
My mother works in education, teaching young people from many parts of the world. It's language teachingprimarily, but she realised that to join the society successfully their are many other things they need to learn. many of the young men from muslim countries have views on women that do not sit well in a culture where women are not regarded as the weaker sex. My mother educate both the young men and young women about this.
Another big issue was that the immigrants from Nepal were low caste and had been taught by the ruling class to fear ghosts. It was discussed at great lenghts in class, and gradually this fear dropped away. They said it was a great liberation for them.
This is how I see it, not some colonial oppression thing to, but a way to liberation for people.
My mother is christian, but in her workplace religion is a private matter.
I'm not religious, and we do have discussions on the matter. For both of us the right to equality trumps religious convention.

No of course all women dont have the same views, be they Muslim or not. Women are individuals who have the right to their own pov. FGM is an extreme example to use because the majority of muslim women condemn it and the small minority who practise know it is wrong which is why it isnt spoken of publicly. I do believe when gosh said 'to listen to them' she meant on other issues, like in this thread hand shaking, or for eg headscarf,halal slaughter or whatever else has been discussed on this forum in the past. Not extreme examples which are not even debatable like FGM, because I am pretty sure nobody would admit to agreeing with that.

Gosh is right about my depths of darkness comment, I couldn't help injecting a little sarcasm into that paragraph after reading comments about the poor oppressed women/brainwashed women with their antiquated views, who are clearly in the wrong!

I really have said what i wanted on the matter and I feel the thread is going around in circles now, so to conclude - some men do not want to be touched for religious or cultural reasons, and some women do not want to be randomly touched by some man be it a colleague or not, but you seem to think this is religious discrimination, as you feel your belief of a mans/woman right to touch outweighs the right or belief of an individual not wanting to be touched. Why? Why is it hard for you to respect another persons wishes be they based on religion or personal preference? There is an air of superiority in your posts which you obviously fail to see.

Yammy, I'm sorry I don't understand your posts at all. Lusty, we probably do have different ideas of respect. If someone says to me they believe someone with a disability is inferior, I don't just disagree with the view, I don't just not respect the view, I don't respect the person. And I won't listen to them with politeness. I will say - you're wrong, and leave them to it. I don't have it in me to explain the myriad of reasons why that person is wrong, it is so blatantly and obviously wrong, and I have no wish to start a conversation with someone telling me why I'm wrong and why people with disabilities are inferior. If everybody did that they might start to rethink their position. If people validate their views by listening to them and taking them seriously - well that would not have a happy ending.

What is out of order, hopping, is for someone to make someone else feel bad for no reason at all except some stupid, antiquated, groundless belief they are inferior. That's wrong. All this talk around it justifies that.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt about not understanding Crumbled, this time and last night.
If you say that lots of times, then no.

At the end of the conversation, did OP offer her hand to shake? How was that received?

There's a lot of conjecture, that the man was repulsed by her uncleanliness or sex or regligion or skin colour or whatever, I know I'd be startled if in the middle of conversation someono took it upon themselves to touch me, my invluntary reaction would be to flinch. I have worked all my life in the UK, people don't go round randomly touching other people even in thanks, you proffer your hand to shake then it's up to the receiver to accept the hand and shake it.

BTW the man could have been eithe Muslim or Jewish both do not touch unrelated females and the women are the same they do not touch unrelated males.

The slight is all in OP's head, he never told her he considered her unclean he went on speaking to her, the poor man had actually helped OP out, I hope he steers well clear of the crazy OP in future who see personal insults in every inflection.

Crumbled are you seriously saying that if someone invades your personal space and touches you unexpectedly you have to be ok with that?

I, and plenty of others here are certainly not ok with unsolicited touching for many reasons. Paws off people.

crumbled I am interested to hear what you think would be a satisfactory solution here?

I understand that ideally the man in question would have no objections to OP touching him. He does have objections;

so next best is to moderate his response to being unexpectedly touched. Im as certain as I can be that jumping and yelping, was not his premeditated response of preference and it was his knee jerk response of suprise....

....so what....do you think he should apologise to OP? How do you think this should play out?

FWIW I think a hand waving gesture in response to OPs apology was a 'no apology needed' type gesture. I would have interpreted as an acknowledgement that he had overreacted/jump in response to the 'touching'.

Its more likely a personal intepretation of religion maybe?

I used to be on a committee at work where we had a group of islamic mullahs, scholars and experts in sharia law (we were creating an islamic financial product). We were not sure how the women in the team would be treated and is was absolutely fine. They shook our hands and spoke to us as equals.

There was just the one we didn't want to shaoe hands with but used to sit picking the wax out of his ears with his fingernails and for obvious reasons, we didn't really want to shake his hand.

The most 'hands off' I've heard of have been from Jewish men.

I really don't like all the kissy kissy stuff though. DS has a lot of french pals and I really don't like being smackerooed by blokes (and women) I barely know!

fwiw I second moomins view re french smackerooing. It does my head in, and how do you know if it's 2,3 or 4 kisses?
I'll do a very scandinavian stand offish type thing from now on, and proffer my hand at least 5 steps away to avoid it.
Apart from that I'm good with the touching upper arms business.
I also have no problem if anyone simply do not do touching as a personal choice, but as has been pointed out, then it should suffice to just explain it nicely afterwards. If the toucher then were to insist on arm patting or back holding or what have you ,they would be in the wrong imo.
If it has to do with religious convictions of uncleanliness which have nothing what so ever to do with the actual situation, then I think it's ridiculous.

Typical MN making this about misogyny. It's actually about men and women not becoming attracted to each other a.) out of marriage and b.) to remove temptation once they are married. People can ease off with the anti-Muslim diatribe too - orthodox Jews won't touch people of the opposite gender either.

I also don't need anyone's pity because I don't wish to be touched nor I do need therapy. My body is my own and not to be touched without my permission.

The "We Believe You" campaign was not so long ago. Is it beyond comprehension that many women and men have had very bad experiences of unwanted touching and wish to establish very clear boundaries?

So crashdoll - if I recoiled when a lesbian touched me but happily turned round and shook the hand of a straight woman, would that be OK? Sounds damn rude to me.

Not wanting to be touched by anyone is a bit socially awkward in our current culture, but it isn't rude in the way discriminating between two people is.

Why can't you just respect another person's culture is the bottom line?! Are you that arrogant to think that your feelings trump someone's religion?

Am I arrogant enough to think my feelings trump someone's religion? Yes. I don't think religion is a defence for actions that are unkind.

I can't just accept that another persons culture is the bottom line because there are lots of things that have been culturally and religiously acceptable at diffrent times and in different places that horrify most people nowadays. I'm glad people faught against those practices and positions, I'm not going to sit back and accept injustice and discrimination just because lots of people find it acceptable.

In our church you do whole shaking hands/kissing on the cheek thing. Nothing to do with physical attraction.

Any religion that says you can't touch or look at a member of the opposite sex in case they are unclean in some way, or likely to drive you to the heights of lust is puting a bit too emphasis on carnality. It usually puts one gender on the back foot with regards to what they do, where they go, what they wear, etc and no guesses which gender ends up with the short end of the stick, or the most rules and regulations.

I don't lust after random blokes or am driven to mad passion if a friend kisses me on the cheek or gives my arm a squeeze.

It cuts both ways - I won't put my hand an the arm of someone who - know would feel uneasy about it, if by the same tolken they won't squeal and rub themselves down with a brillo pad, assuming I am one step away from seducing them.

Why is it so hard for someone to just think 'bloody touchy/feely brits/christians/french' and shrug it off as not a deliberate come-on? Or even take a deep breath and explain why this is something that makes them feel awkward.

Some 'rules' are very difficult not get get insulted by - so having to pull a whole batch of paper cups from the bottom one only and not handle any others, then hand it to someone who selects one from the middle that you haven't possible have contaminated. Now that's a hard one to smile and nod to.

Of course there are people who just don't like being touched, for whatever reason and it isn't always obvious. Again, "please don't".

In the OPs case the touched man went on to shake another man's hand with no problems. I'm assuming the OP wasn't in Saudi or other country where the no touching rule generally applies? What if the OP was a black man and had the same reaction?

I would touch women like this at work but not men OP
Recoiling from social touch does seem rude to me though

Is anyone else really hoping for a man to start a thread about how he touched a women who recoiled but she didnt yelp as that would be over egging it and he is a bit hurt by it?

I wonder what the replies would be like......

If you're at work and are left hanging at a handshake as the crickets chirp then that would be awful.

I'm not a touchy touchy person naturally. We scots aren't by nature. I can't remember being hugged or kissed as a child (I realise how sad that sounds). However I have mainly mainland european friends and its rubbed off a bit but I don't lunge at colleagues or aquaintances! Although even my muslin relatives will pop an arm around my shoulder and jig it when having a joke or taking the mickey out of me.

If the op had offered her hand to shake and it had been refused then he'd shaken another mans hand then I would say he was wrong but you can't compare a hand shake and a touch on the arm as I said earlier I'm happy to shake hands but hate being touched otherwise.

The op has been looking for a reason why he flinched and assumed it was due to religion and that he viewed her as unclean, she's admitted that it never occurred to her that he just wasn't happy to be touched. It was suggested that she ask him rather than making assumptions and until we know for sure that is what everyone else is doing too.

Irrespective of religion or culture my right to refuse to be patted on the arm by anyone overrides anyone else's feelings,

YY TheToys.

Emmeline your right to have your feelings unhurt certainly doesn't trump my right to decide who touches my body.

It was a pat On the arm not a pinch in the bum.

Quite frankly if this had happened to me op be it from a man or a woman I would have been hurt and angry.

Totally ott.

It is always humorous when two sets of right-on left wing beliefs co-exist in the same thread. This one is the "bodily integrity is all" belief and the "all cultural/religious beliefs should be respected, no matter how weird or what the intention of the transgressor is" belief.

The reality is that a polite touch to reinforce a point is in no sense rude and it is the intention that matters. Non extreme versions of all religions allow exceptions for accidents or those who do not know the religious code. I bet (although I do not know for a fact) that no moderate Muslim man would object to an innocent touch on the arm from a non believer in a work context.

The OP politely touched a colleague to reinforce a point. He responded rudely. Her intention was good. He could see that and chose to ignore it. That is rude. End of.

It isnt as simple as saying that it is intention that matters.
The op knew how the man was about being touched. But she touched him anyway. So what was her intention?