Is it right to make a woman feel unclean?

[camel1]

I was saying 'thank you' to a male colleague and touched his upper arm as a reinforcement of that thanks. He recoiled in disgust, his body language, his facial expression and his yelp surprised me so much that I apologised profusely. The incident happened in front of many children, as I am a teacher at a school. And within a minute he had shook hands with a male colleague. Whether it was his intention or not, I felt that he felt I was unclean. I was/am greatly upset by this. I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa. However, I have lived in many different countries and cultures, and I adhered to their cultural rules and would never have reacted in such an offensive way. What do you think?

Hang on, with one breath you seem very critical that "I really do think I'm so superior" and ignoring women - yet with another you are urging me to "educate them and bring them out of the depths of darkness"? Your post doesn't make any sense. What are these depths of darkness to which you refer? A religious based discrimination perhaps? What do you think I'm saying here? I'm condemning it. Are you really saying you want me to go and find some Muslim women and educate them in this way and bring them out of the depths of darkness? But the two women on this thread who are Muslim seem to be arguing with me. Which does lead me to think it wouldn't be a very welcome "education" or "bringing out of the depths".

And who introduced Islam anyway? I didn't even assume this man was Muslim in the first place. There are plenty of cultures, and religious based cultures, where women are seen as second class citizens.

That is the most anti-Muslim thing I think I've ever read, apart from a lot of old rubbish in a certain newspaper. "Educate them and bring them out of the depths of darkness". Hoppin, look, I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out the way it did. Do explain what you really meant to say, I will read it.

Crumbled - the part about educating them was sarcasm.

As for discriminatory practice's, it depends what you consider discriminatory. Not shaking hands with someone of the opposite sex is no big deal to me, but you seem to see it as some kind of outrage.

As for who mentioned Islam, AFAIK Islam and Judaism are the two religions with rules about touch and gender relations, so this is relevant to the thread.

I'm sure you would like keep this as a vaguely anti religions thread and you seem to be rather cross at being disagreed with. I'm not sure what is quite so baffling about Muslim feminists and/or Muslim human rights activists existing, crumbs a Muslim woman won the Nobel Peace Prize last year. There is a lot going on out there in the "real world" if you'd only care to look.

"Perhaps you should listen to them, and if you still disagree then engage in a fruitful discussion/debate, educate them, bring them out of the depths of darkness and all that, instead of just ignoring and dismissing what they have to say."
This is not sarcasm.

I must say Gosh I really need to know if you defend discriminatory practice on the grounds of religion. I need to know because if you do, I think that's so wrong that I wouldn't want to discuss it any more.

What do you consider to be discriminatory practices? Examples please.

Er - we're discussing one. A man yelping and recoiling from a woman in a professional environment.

I've given my thoughts on that man's reaction - excessive and unnecessary, twice upthread!!

He did not want to touch her, or vice versa, because she's a woman. Do you defend that?

I have no problem with that. I have explained (endlessly) not touching the opposite sex does not come from thinking the opposite sex is unclean or inferior. It's just what is considered good manners and correct boundaries.

It is interesting how many people on this thread have spoken about their own thoughts on touching, so I feel it is right that people are entitled to their boundaries.

Buuut, you are convinced that there is a sinister intent to the "not touching the opposite gender practice" so I'm sure my words will have no effect.

"Correct" boundaries? according to... whom? Correct boundaries to Muslims?

Plainly this man's reaction was not about good manners or "correct" boundaries. It was based on something different. What do you think yelping and recoiling are based on?

I do not want to see a culture of informal contact replaced by a culture of boundaries judged correct only according to a certain religious code.

And will you please answer my question about which group we are to listen to - and how we decide who to listen to? Do we not make that decision according to our own moral principles?

I've discussed the yelping and such 3 times now!!! Are you a robot? I am answering your questions and you are not listening, just repeating the same questions at me.

Which "groups" do you think are out there? Do you think religious women can be neatly categorised into teams, or do you think you might have to do some reading and listening and take it from there.

I touched a colleague on the upper arm as an impulsive and spontaneous expression of delight when we shared a particular success at work. I was very surprised and embarrassed when he recoiled at my touch and I'm quite wary of him now as I clearly misunderstood how close we'd been (not in a sexual way, but as colleagues with a very close working relationship)

What do you think it was based on? A view of women as inferior? I do. Why does he have that view? Do you think it is anything to do with his religion, or rather his upbringing and culture. That would mean the non-touching is part of his religion, but the yelping part of his upbringing. Do you agree?

No I don't think that. I made the point that "Muslim women", who you said we should listen, are disparate with disparate views. We have talked about two groups, for example. Women who fight FGM and women who collude. You say we should listen to Muslim women (your words). So who do we listen to and who do we ignore?

FFS - Jedi, Catholic, Scientologist, Muslim, Hindu, Humanist, Agnostic, Atheist.

It's all FUCKING BULLSHIT.

If anyone recoiled from my touch I would wonder what the fuck was going on in their head.

& then I'd feel a bit sad for them.

crumbled maybe you'll listen to someone else... I think what gosh is trying to say is that we should listen to both fighters and colluders of FGM, as who knows, when listening to someone support it, you might find someone who needs help. Ignoring them won't just make it go away. (Gosh hope ive got that right, if not i apologise)
And as for "correct boundaries", not correct boundaries decided by Muslims, or Jews, or blacks, whites or sky-blue-pinks, boundaries decided by ME. MY body, my rules. I decide that, as I've known you a while, and like you, that a hug on meeting is fine. I approach you with arms outstretched. You reciprocate. All is lovely. Or you look horror struck and back away. I don't assume you think I'm "unclean" I assume that I'm invading/about to invade YOUR boundaries. Not the ones set by your parents/religion/culture/aliens that abducted you, but YOU!!

There is too much self-contradiction. This is from Goth.

Any Muslim women who do speak on here are ignored or accused or being brainwashed. How can you claim to want to "help" people when you don't even respect them enough to listen to them?

Firstly, I have not, "not listened" to Muslim women. Gosh is talking about listening, however, as according respect. I do not respect a view that women are lesser than men, wherever it comes from - even a Muslim woman. I am not going to respect that view. It doesn't mean I don't hear it. Of course I hear it: I know about it: but you can't use "listen" as "hear", and "listen" as "respect", and flip back and forth between the two. If you mean hear, yes, I hear the voice, I read the view: if you talk about listen as "respect", no I don't respect that view. I've said that, and you can't then turn that around and say I'm not listening to the view, just because you used the word in two different ways.

Goth also wrote this:

This may be a shock to some here, there has been a lot written by Muslim woman on the pitfalls of colonial feminism and "white people oppressing brown men to "save" brown women".

If you are talking about "colonial feminism" in this country, it's not colonial feminism at all. It's feminism and equality under the law. Women have worked (extremely) hard for it and I don't want to see it undermined.

There is a lot of frustration with groups of well intentioned (I'm being kind) non-Muslim women who want to "save" Muslim women without ever bothering to listen to them.

Because Goth used "listen" as "respect" earlier, I took her to mean "respect" here. I have listened, and read: if the view is that women should be submissive to men, or cover themselves to save men from sexual urges, or should be segregated from men, or should marry people they don't want to, or should have their genitals cut, I don't respect it. I think you are projecting on to me the views of other, unnamed people.

We should listen to both fighters and colluders of FGM, as who knows, when listening to someone support it, you might find someone who needs help. Ignoring them won't just make it go away.

So damned if I do and damned if I don't. Damned for ignoring them and not helping, or damned for "helping"? (how?) so falling into the trap of what Gosh calls "colonial feminism".

I don't belong to a religion which holds these views. It's up to men and women who have these views to respect gender equality under the law, and if anyone needs to fight these views, the people in the best position to do so are women within the communities. What I can do, is say I don't respect those views. I can say I expect people to respect the culture and laws of equality. And that's what I've done.

Now you see, I'm just reading "listen" as "listen". You can respect someone and listen to what they have to say, even if you completely disagree what they are saying. I respect people, not religions/colours/opinions. I can listen to one of my bosses say that a woman's place is in the home having babies and there is no way a woman is capable of doing a technical job. Obviously he is talking out of his arse, but I can still afford the respect of listening to him. Who knows, he might have a valid reason for his gross generalisation. (A woman doing a technical job ballsed up and lost him his job, therefore all women must not do technical jobs. In much the same way that one man who was and didn't like to be touched by a woman, therefore all men of must think women are unclean and inferior)

Oh and my use of "help" ^^ was not necessarily "remove knife and save a life" it was more of a "if you listen to that one person talk, who you do not respect because of views they have held all their life, you may find that you can offer an alternative view that they might never even have considered". I have held views all my life, because of my culture, my family and the area I grew up in. These things don't get questioned or challenged unless you move away or meet someone with radically different views who is willing to listen (hear words, process words), and someone asks "why do you do that?" Then you start to think, and maybe change your mind. But you would never have realised that there are other ways of doing something/seeing things unless someone had pointed them out. (And these "you"s are general, not specific btw)

Sorry Gosh I got your name wrong.

Again, Lusty you are using words in two different words and conflating their uses. In this case, respecting a view and respecting a person. Respect itself means a number of different things, as you know. If you think it means, listen attentively when they are spouting sexist crap at you, we disagree.

Lusty, you talked about disagreeing with a view (about women). Not only do I disagree with the view, I don't accord the view any respect. None whatsoever, not a shred. Do you respect the view that people with disabilities are inferior, or Black people? I'm sure you don't. You not only disagree with it, you don't respect it. Well, maybe you do respect it, but I wouldn't normally accuse people of respecting such a view and I don't do it here. Do you respect a person who voices those views? I doubt it. So I do not respect a view that women are inferior and I never will. If you think someone has a valid reason for thinking that no woman can do technical jobs, because one woman ballsed up a technical job, we are light years apart in our opinions here. If you think I am basing my view, by the way, on the OP of this thread - you are not correct. For example, senior Muslim is so concerned he asked five hundred mosques to preach a sermon against grooming and a distorted view of women. Should I not listen to him?

"if you listen to that one person talk, who you do not respect because of views they have held all their life, you may find that you can offer an alternative view that they might never even have considered... These things don't get questioned or challenged unless you move away" Are you not moving dangerously close to the accusation from Gosh that well-meaning outsiders believe Muslim women have been brainwashed or have Stockholm Syndrome?

Two different WAYS

I suspect we have different ideas about respect (or I'm not making much sense, which is possible). What I'm about to say may come across as patronising, which it is no way how it is meant to be, but with only text, it's often difficult to convey meaning...
For me, respect is like politeness I guess. It's given until consistently proven wrong, then removed, and rarely given back. I still respect the "person" who said that women shouldn't have technical jobs. I disrespect the attitude. I disagree with that stance, he knows I disagree, we have agreed to disagree. He is still polite, well mannered and good at his job. If he was an arse to me, and was bad at his job, then i would not respect the person. Should I not respect him for one bullshit attitude? The same for disrespect towards people with disabilities, of a different colour or of a different religion. I may (and do!) tell people that being racist makes them an arse, but I don't then ignore everything they say, just because they have this one, woefully ignorant, opinion.
I don't think this man has a "valid reason" for saying that women shouldn't be in technical jobs, but I do understand why he thinks that. In much the same way that I think all men from are self centred, arrogant twats, I base that view on my experience of one man. I know it's not true, but it does colour my judgement. I wish it didn't, but it does. However, it doesn't change my behaviour towards these men. I still treat them as normal human beings (unless they prove otherwise).
Finally, I do not agree with the brainwashing/Stockholm syndrome accusation, but I do believe in not knowing something is wrong unless you are told otherwise. In the 70s (? Before my time, not sure on dates) we were told that smoking was good for us. We (a population) believed it, because people we believed/trusted/respected told us so. Now, because we have been told differently, we know better. If my father/rabbi/doctor/insert person of trust here, has told me all my life that women are inferior/black people are unclean/Chinese people smell/people with disabilities have been disrespectful to god and deserve them (none of which I believe, I must add!) then how would I know any different unless someone tells me otherwise?? If someone continues to believe these things, after having had them pointed out, I would (privately) roll my eyes and think they were a lot bit crazy. If their attitude, based on their life "knowledge" (teachings of father/doctor/rabbi/immam) caused me distress I would ignore (disrespect) them. If, however, in my company, they were not racist/sexist/disablist, then I would continue to associate (respect) with them.

Split, if you know the bible, then you will know that you are scriptually wrong.
I can quote verses at you, but you know them already.