Is it right to make a woman feel unclean?

[camel1]

I was saying 'thank you' to a male colleague and touched his upper arm as a reinforcement of that thanks. He recoiled in disgust, his body language, his facial expression and his yelp surprised me so much that I apologised profusely. The incident happened in front of many children, as I am a teacher at a school. And within a minute he had shook hands with a male colleague. Whether it was his intention or not, I felt that he felt I was unclean. I was/am greatly upset by this. I understand that his cultural or religious beliefs does not permit him to touch women, or vice versa. However, I have lived in many different countries and cultures, and I adhered to their cultural rules and would never have reacted in such an offensive way. What do you think?

I'm not saying that anyone has to respect anyone's religion. They should respect another person's right to not wanted to be touched by you.

Then Dione, WHY did he shake the man's hand???

If it's because of religion and a religious based view that a woman is inferior then it represents discrimination. Imagine not wanting to be touched by a disabled person because they are disabled. Actually I agree with the call for a reality check. Some people don't live in the real world.

Thebody - I don't need a reality check thanks. The high number of Muslim healthcare workers (male and female) may give you a clue and also that teachers are duty bound to give first aid, regardless of faith ot gender may also answer your question.

Crumbled - someone calling you out doesn't mean they don't live in the same world as you.

Also you do know that FGM is cultural practice, not sanctioned by any religion and thus effects women who are Christian, Muslim and of other faiths. Hence my bafflement that you automatically assume that it' s a Muslim issue that most Muslim women defend.

Crumbled, your posts are spot on. Well done!! Thanks for bringing common sense to a topic about religion!! :)

Calling me out? What are you talking about? I didn't assume FGM was a Muslim thing. YOU started talking about Muslim women. I don't think I even assumed the bloke in the OP is a Muslim. I'm not surprised you're baffled - I'm pretty baffled myself as I didn't say it. You did.

Yes, plenty of anti-feminist script in Christianity, plenty of anti-feminist (to say the least) issues in Hindu culture. Do you defend any of those anti-equality scripts or practices? Do you defend them in a Muslim culture? Do you defend a Muslim man recoiling in horror when a woman touches him, because she is a woman? Do you defend that? Do you defend it in a culture based on Hinduism or a culture based on Christianity?

aw thank you [flower] split, same to you as well

Gosh, no that's want the question though was it?

I asked you if you thought the man I'm the the ops thread, a teacher by the way, recoiling at a woman's touch would have 'manned up' enough to have saved my dds life.

Again what do you think?

Sorry cant feel I could trust him with my dd.

I think an Orthodox Jew who was so uncomfortable touching a women that he recoiled in disgust would be ultra orthodox and his clothing would make it obvious.... Further my understanding of the law was that it was even more forbidden to embarrass someone...

That all being said - a handshake is mutual whereas touching someone's arm isn't and best to avoid touching other people unless its mutual.

Thebody - sorry to hear about what your child went through but of course any muslim teacher from any sect or background would be obligated to save a life, be it a girl or a woman or a transgender!! The circumstances are totally different to the op's.
Islam teaches that to save one life is like saving humanity, it isn't such a rigid religion as most would like you to believe, and i am not preaching before i am accused, simply explaining.

Thebody - I think he would save her life as it is permitted religiously that you can touch the opposite sex when required e.g as a healthcare worker, or to provide first aid. You seem to have decided on the basis of the OP's one and only post that he wouldn't.

Crumbled - we only have the op's word that his reaction was so fervent. If the OP is right, I think the man's reaction was excessive and possibly he may have other issues with touch aside from religious/cultural rulings. Plenty of people on the thread have described their own aversion to unwanted touch.

Hoppin, thank you for that reassurance.

Are you suggesting the OP is lying?
Would you like to answer my questions about whether you defend discrimination based on religion?

Gosh - sorry but you shouldn't be allowed to get away with implying that FGM is a common feature of Christian communities. A quick google will tell you otherwise...

In Islam FGM is widespread across both Sunni and Shia traditions. In Christianity there is absolutely no mainstream church or denomination would support such barbarism. Islamic theologians claim to find support for the practice in the Qur'an ('sunna' circumcision), but no Christian theologian claims biblical provenance. If FGM is practised by any Christian communities, it is undoubtedly obscure and heretical. That is plainly not the case within Islam, which alone in the West is advocating the practice.

Exactly gosh - how do we know he wasn't abused as a child and may react that way when touched unexpectedly. Ffs we could sit here and speculate til the cows come home but still not get any closer to.the real story behind it.

I doubt op will be back, but if she is stil reading this my suggestions would be to approach him, if it really has bothered her that much to speak to him about it and find out the real reason then come back and update thread

Jean - its mainly practiced in africa amongst the muslim and christian followers.

I am muslim and do not know of a single scholar well known or otherwise, who condones or encourages female circumcision. Maybe in Africa there are local imams etc but there is nothing authentic in the Quran or Ahadith which supports it.

I wouldn't have liked it either, and I have no religious beliefs. I don't know if I'd have recoiled (I wouldn't), but I may have involuntarily flinched or shown surprise.

To add to Hoppin's post here is a quick overview on FGM and it's erroneous links to Islam: www.forwarduk.org.uk/key-issues/fgm/fgm-islam

It's from Forward, who are a v good UK based charity combating FGM.

Gosh do you want to answer my questions? Do you defend discrimination based on religion? And do you seriously expect me to respect it if you do?

And you haven't answered my other question, about which Muslim women to listen to. You accuse people of not listening to "muslim women" but I'm afraid they're a disparate group. We have to ignore some Muslim women. How do we decide which to ignore? By using our own sense of right and wrong. Don't you agree?

Who is assuming this man is a Muslim? It looks very much like a religious-cultural recoil from a woman, in a professional environment. And Muslim women are here defending that, even to go so far as suggesting it's because he was abused as a child - when really it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and probably is a duck, in all likelihood ie a religious-cultural recoil from a woman in a professional environment. To use child abuse to defend discrimination, that's not really a great argument.

The older I get, the more I think that most forms of religion exist purely and simply to oppress women.

Crumbled, sorry if I'm sounding naive but why should you ignore these women you are speaking of, who you disagree with? These women may be amongst the 'poor oppressed, brainwashed' party that so many women seem to pity on here. Perhaps you should listen to them, and if you still disagree then engage in a fruitful discussion/debate, educate them, bring them out of the depths of darkness and all that, instead of just ignoring and dismissing what they have to say. You really do think you are so superior.

Also no i didn't say he was abused, I said he may have been. Just speculating, same as everyone else really. Including you.

Gosh wants me to "listen" to them, by which I did assume she meant respect their point of view. Well I can't respect the point of view of all of them. For example, as Gosh is happy to point up, some women collude with FGM, some women fight it. Which do you want to listen to and which to ignore? You can't agree with both views. Unless you think that all Muslim women have the same views about everything all the time? Btw I don't think that NOT assuming the OP is lying or wrong (me) is the same kind of speculation as using child abuse to defend discrimination (others).

Yes, I do, I just said, I think my belief in sexual equality is superior to a belief that women are lesser or unclean. Obviously. Who doesn't? Not you I hope.